They need a revision- Income tax or sales tax NOT real estate! AND how much money are they spending on Special election fees? Listen to the PEOPLE, Its not the buildings. Has maintenance logs been checked lately?
Source for funding will not get any better than this.
It's been stated 1 million times and i'm not sure why people don't understand.
Income tax would mean a higher burden on the individual to contribute (businesses would not have to share the financial burden, like walmart, mcdonalds, etc). It would mean a smaller tax base, and therefore more per contributor.
Sales tax can only be applied at the state or county level. The entire county isn't going to pay for greenville's school. Further more, a sales tax would have the same problem as an income tax, less of a tax base means more per contributor. Additionally, sales taxes tend to hit lower income households harder, since a larger % of their income is spent on taxable goods (higher income families have an easier time saving 'extra' income which is therefore not taxes).
Both of those are bad ideas.
Spend on elections is a valid concern, but with the state money disappearing, they'll see it as a worthwhile expense (i'm predicting). You'll just have to take time to go vote no again, i guess.
also, what do you mean it isn't the buildings? I'm hoping you don't mean the buildings don't need replaced? because they're horrid and most definitely do need replaced.
Obviously, the voters are not going to pass this levy. Why waste money on another election? Try saving money in a building fund for a few years and show the taxpayers you know how to manage money. I agree, renters should pay for schools too.
The people have spoken not twice but 4 times. Remember two times on the ballot for a K-12. Every time has been NO. I think the BOE needs to think of a new way to get the money. A sales tax is the most evenly divided way. Why burden the homeowners.
The people have spoken, but the people also obviously don't listen. How many times does it have to be said that it CAN NOT be a sales tax. And what about checking the maintenence logs? You can look at the maintenence logs for my '77 pick up truck. The maintenence has been done and that is how I can still drive it, but its a 34 year old vehicle and will need replaced.
NO, they need to start planning for the future before it has to happen. Maybe the Administration should take a cut like the rest of us. Our family has gone down to 1 income and we will be lucky if I can pay our house payment alone more taxes. I have cut all our spending even going to the grocery. Enough with the $25,000 for each special election. No is No.
Why do people keep insisting on a sales tax? The school board can not put on a sales tax! period. And how would a sales tax not burden a homeowner? don't they shop here also?
SALES TAX CAN ONLY BE APPLIED AT THE COUNTY AND STATE LEVELS. IT IS NOT LEGAL, THERE IS NO WAY, WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TO A SALES TAX! What is so hard about that concept to you people? You vote no and don't even listen to what they're saying!
Renters are not property owners. But somebody owns that property and that person pays the property tax. Each piece of property pays in, it makes no difference who pays it. If you have fifteen pieces of property, you should pay it all. It's your responsibility and you knew about taxes when you bought it.
And also, sales tax is only issuable at the county and state level. It's not an option. That was stated numerous times before the vote. Apparently nobody pays attention when deciding how to vote.
It is quite obvious we must try this one more time, and I hope by August enough people will understand why we cannot have a sales tax and that an income tax would cost the individual even more.
And no, we can't save $30 plus million in a savings account in a few years to pay for a new school. The money isn't there to save.
And no, we can't cut administration salaries. They are making equal or lower than other districts, and with their education and the amount of work they put in, they are worth it. Besides, that wouldn't grant us enough income savings to pay for new gutters.
The truth is this: We only have one more chance to gain the state money that we tax payers have been paying into. Why let that money go somewhere else? Yes, it's going to cost $25,000, but it's the only way we have a chance to gain $8.5 million. Isn't that a good investment?
I hear you, no sales tax, now it's your turn to listen. It is insulting to continue to insist on a new building when this community has such a high number of unemployed and underemployed citizens. These are workers, worked all their lives, and suddenly can no longer afford the life they had. They are not on welfare because they are too lazy to work. That's Greenville now. Stop acting like a building is the only answer to every problem. The building does NOT guarantee ANYTHING. But families struggling is REAL. We understand that whether it comes out of our pocket with the state money or the levy, it is still our money and we have no more to give. The world of academia is often oblivious to real people because the administrators are overpaid in Ohio. But I expect better from the rest of us.
I am very disappointed at the reasons for voting no. Sales tax is NOT an option as stated above and would not be feasible anyway because people would just go out of town to shop. Plus we would be asking the entire county to foot the bill for our school since a sales tax is for an entire county. For the person who said we voted "no" four times, the first two times they referred to was not for a K-12 as they indicated. It was for a K-5 building with no state funding (100% paid by Greenville residents). I pray there is some middle ground to be found between the school board/administration and the "no" voters. Please educate yourselves before voting on anything. Do not just listen to propaganda!
I am listening. You say there is a high number of unemployed and underemployed. If these folks are home owners, they know that sometimes money must be spent to maintain their home. A roof may begin leading, or a furnace will need replacing. Well, this community is our home. These old buildings need replaced. Something has to be done. Independent studies have shown that it will make more financial sense to replace rather than repair. This community has no choice. Something must be done. And we can do it. We are talking pennies a day, spread out across the citizenry of this community, to provide a decent (not extravagant) school for all 5 - 8 grade children. With all due respect, no one on this thread claims this building is the only answer. It does, however, provide a decent work environment for our kids. Decent school buildings do help in educating our kids. It is one part of the picture in educating our kids. Is this too much for our community to handle? I don't think so.
It is hard to vote for a levy when you know that it will be followed by ANOTHER levy in the very near future, whether for another school building or just because the school system didn't properly budget to care for and pay those working in the new school. It is the same issue over and over again all over the state! Some district builds a new school because they could get help from the state and, low and behold, they can't afford to operate the thing! How do we know Greenville won't be in the same boat? The problem is that they probably would be because they have shown repeatedly they make terrible decisions!
Families are being forced to make difficult decisions all over the country. Greenville is no exception. The difference between "need" and "want" determines actions. Needing a roof vs wanting a new school building is where we are. In fact, if the buildings have been allowing to deteriorate, we must find a feasible solution. And that would be one of the many empty buildings will suffice until better times. Children will be better prepared for the future if they see an example of responsible use of resources instead of throwing money around when it isn't prudent.
No, it shouldn't. The people have spoken and they have said no. I understand the buildings are old but in this economy, with so many people being laid off or having their hours and pay cut we just can't afford it. I myself have lost my job and we are now a one income family struggling to pay our mortgage every month, for those who still have their jobs it may not sound like much to pay but for the rest of us it does. Ask again in a few years when, hopefully, the economy is a little better. Until then my children can learn just as well in these buildings as they could in a new building. It's not that we don't care or that we don't listen, it's that we can't afford it!
I have herd this debate since the board bought the land be hind the peoples back.People are pulling there kids out of greenville schools and sending them to arcanum or franklin monroe.If im not mistaken when I was in school in the early 80,s greenville schools were the best around.I think that the board needs to go back to drawing board and try something differant Because this is the second time the people have said no and not just no bye a few votes but a pretty sound defeat.On both ocasions.Can they not redesign this school and cut some corners use non union carpenters and labor and see if they cant get the cost of this school down.I mean come on 33 million is a lot of money for just 4 grades.Well just thought I would put my 2 cents in.I dont get on this site much any more because of all the crying and wineing.If every bo0dy would put forth half the energy they put in to wineing We might be able to come up with a solution that will work for every body
@11:41, we have no empty buildings. Please be informed on the issues:)
@1143, it's not that the buildings are old. Many old buildings are in great shape. But with many budget cuts and the voters giving the schools no new funding it's hard to keep up. Our old buildings are in awful shape. Watch the video on South School. It may disgust you. As far as a few years, I've said before and I'll say again it does not matter when you ask the voters, no matter the economic situation or the job market nobody wants to give out more money than they have to. Never will anyone "want" to vote for higher taxes. I agree, it's rough. Between my fiancee and I we each work two jobs to make ends meet and we have no kids. Good jobs are hard to come by and taxes are no help but I fully believe this is the right thing to do. I have no kids and I won't for years to come, but I vote yes for everyone elses kids. I encourage everyone to watch the South School video.
Correction - request previous was for a Pre-K to 5 made on November 4, 2003. Below off the board of elections website.
ISSUE NO. 14- GREENVILLE CSD- BOND ISSUE- CONSTRUCTION OF PRE-K THRU GRADE 5- 3.95 MILLS- 28 YRS.- $27,500,000 FOR THE BOND ISSUE 2,967 41.68 AGAINST THE BOND ISSUE 4,151 58.32
The amount slightly higher by $3 million as there are 3 more grades (PK-5 vs. 5-8) and student population much higher.
The millage higher as bond for 28 years as compared to 37 years.
Why not charge each family a fee per child who attends a Greenville school? Why not charge a fee for sports or being member of a club? I just heard on the news about a month ago that is exactly what another school did because they could not pass a levy.
The first thing that angered a lot of people was the lack of transparency when the land for the proposed new school was purchased. Second I don't think the BOE has demonstrated any desire to bring payroll costs in line with the current economic climate. Correct me if I'm wrong but salary increases have come every year for our teachers and health care costs are paid entirley by the BOE, this is not reality with todays economic downturn. Many people feel if concessions were made they might have a more favorable attitude towards considering a new tax. As some of the others have pointed out I don't feel property owners should be responsible everytime a need for the school comes up. And don't mention Wal-Mart paying their fare share with a property tax, we all remember how they put the screws to the city of Greenville. The school system must change the way they are doing business before asking for more money in my opinion.
Some of you will always vote no. We'll just have to find more who see the need. And yes, this is real need, not a want --for better learning,and for helping to attract more business and industry. It's ironic that these schools will probably benefit those who are most against it.
The state has learned its lesson: this issue includes a levy for maintenance.
And yes, you are right: There will be more bond issues and more levies. The high school, East and Woodland Heights need something done too. But in the case of these schools, we're not eligible for aid, so we can wait on them. Would you rather do it all at once?! Of course not. Right now, we are eligible for state assistance for this middle school, so we have to do this now. The others will wait. We're waiting on the others precisely because of the economy.
Finally, our taxes are some of the lowest in the state. We are not being over taxed. There are school districts that just passed millage of 3 and 4 times the amount of our millage. If we want to have a decent community we have to spend a little money. That's just life.
This is a NEED. Go ahead and continue to vote no. We will just find more who will say Yes.
They need to stop putting this on if they plan to do this in august it will be a special election and will cost a bunch of money to do this the school board needs to stop spending money faster than they get it. fix what they have stop the elections the magic bricks is not going to happen.
One more thing -- I wish people would get over the fact that the board was thinking far enough ahead to purchase that property. South and the Junior High are on lots too small for safe transport of students. We NEED our schools on more acreage. The state requires a minimum of acreage for new construction. Thank God the board purchased this property when it became available. If they waited until the people voted for it, we would never get the property. We would be crying no about that too. They did what needed to be done, and what we elected them to do. They saw the need and the opportunity, and went for it. Good for them. Now we have the property at hand.
Here's some thoughts...IF you lived in Miamisburg, your yearly taxes on a $100,000 home just went up $800 a year because you just passed a school levy. I think that it took Versailles 3 tries to get their new building...mostly because the folks in North Star didn't want to let go of a little tiny school just for them. People are leaving Greenville Schools in droves because try as they might, only so much maintance can be done on a 90 year building that gets used and abused everyday...and there are newer modern school facilities within 10 miles. Last thought.....EVERY school in the state of Ohio has these kinds of problems because of the way Ohio mandates it's public school funding. No it isn't fair, and all schools do the best they can with what they do or don't have. If you really want to do something, contact the state legislature and start barking at them.
I love it when Republicans vote for new taxes in!! Smaller government, mortagaging our grandchildern's future, tax and spend. It slays me on the hippocrits in this county who attend organized events in D.C. protesting the very thing that you are trying to push in Darke County.
No way that I will be convinced that a new building will equate to better learing....tired of hearing of that as a reason to pass the levy. Better learning starts at home...a new building isn't going to change that.
8:21 -- Agreed. Better learning starts at home. But a decent building helps. Try to teach a room full of 5th graders when the temperature inside is 85 degrees. That's a reality some days in our current buildings. A more tolerable environment means a better learning environment. This is ONE reason to pass this bond issue / levy.
I just watched the videos of the interior of a couple of the schools. The health risk we are putting the students at with all the leakage over the years is not good. There HAS to be a lot of mold in those buildings. The bathrooms can not be sanitary if the plumbing is so bad like in the condition that was described that they can't fix the drains and the smell is terrible.
My kids are grown and not in school. I don't have any grandchildren in school either. I pay property taxes in Greenville so this will affect me...........but I have been voting yes and will continue to vote yes every time this is on the ballot.
What part of 'NO' confuses the School Board? The people have spoken. They are just like little kids who ask for something once and are told no, then they keep coming back and back and back. It's irritating. Tighten your belt like anyone else does when they need money.
Since we seem to like our 100 year old schools, I have an idea for saving a lot more money. We did not have snow removal or police cars one hundred years ago. We should look at the city and county records from that time and then stop funding everything we have today that we did not have then. We could save millions.
Opponents of the levy, look around and what do you see? Any kid graduating from Greenville with brains and ambition hits the road and never looks back. Thanks to you, the city is turning a dumping ground for the left-behind and the losers. Who's happy about new taxes, especially when we have to vote for thenm, but schools are an investment in the future. Either we invest, or we're just going to become another dying town, where people used to live.
@1134, where do you expect the school to tighten the funds necessary to build a new middle school? It's not every day the state offers funds for this. And keep in mind the repair cost is about 103% of the cost of new. If your old crappy TV can be fixed up for $100 and you can buy a brand new flat screen TV for $103, what would you buy?
I don't live in Greenville anymore, but I grew up there, I have family who still live there (and pay property taxes) and it's unsurprising to see this levy fail and fail again. The people of Greenville have a long, illustrious career of voting against education. This is why it's tiresome and irrelevant to continuously hear that "the people have spoken." The people in question are apparently proud supporters of ignorance, apathy, and shallow self-interest. The levy should be put back on the ballot, but, as self-defeating as it sounds, its supporters need to realize that it won't pass in a community whose citizens choose to remain short-sighted and willfully ignorant.
Education takes place in many stuctures. We in the US tend to want to demolish our history. Our private schools in the area are in less than ideal buildings--but good education happens there. To see how home-schooled children often outshine public school students, just Google home schooling.
Rob: You nailed it. I don't say this as a threat but as a warning. The people of this town don't realize the impact their votes on the school are having. Good people are leaving this town. I just heard about another one today. And, they will not be here to help you pay for the new school when the State comes in and mandates a new school be built. Not that it will make a difference but don't say you weren't warned.
Rob, please move back to Greenville. You can help educate the "short-sighted and willfully ignorant".
I studied the issue. It is not well thought out. It is wrong configuration. It is financed in a way that adds many millions to cost of the project for local tax payer.
And if you study the facts the only thing lost by passing at this time is maybe 2% of state assistance AND $1/2 million for 50% of GJHS facade repairs.
I voted no.
I think the board needs to NOT put the levy back on the ballot in August. They need to take a time out to listen to the community as to what they want for their schools.
I've sent letters to board members. I encourage others to contact them.
No new property taxes, no new sales taxes---but what about Income taxes? For schools? Wait a minute we already pay that----where does that money go? If you tally the cost of the Bliss challenge in court a few years ago ($38,000) and the cost of putting these levies and bond issues on the bal time after time---why, we could have repaired the Junior High Building!
And, there are very very few schools left in Ohio that only have a 1/2 percent income tax. Most others are 1 to 1 3/4 percent. We should pay more. After all, the city takes 1 percent... Watch the south school video. It's appalling and my kids have graduated. We need improvements. Maybe they should forgo the middle school and just do it all, K-12.
K-6, new. 7-12 in Park (current high school), renovate / upgrade this facility to accomodate.
Or explore doing something either at Woodland Heights site or be creative with East School / LoBill location.
Have you called the treasure to ask what funding available from what use to be the Ohio Schools Facilities Commission? This reimbursement was around 35% 10 years ago and possibly could be up to 40%. I split the difference for the 38%
Call Mrs. Surber @ 548-3185. Get your finance questions answered.
Funding available after August but will look different.
The Build American Bonds available revised project.
Published reports on repair of facade was $900,000 to 1,100,000. Campaign commitee, that was public in January, indicated getting reimbursed for 1/2 or $500,000.
Ask your favorite board member what their plan is for the current high school when there are 800 students occupying it. There were 1,400 in the building when I attended. The was no CT building or "new" gym.
I will vote yes for a solution that fits our needs long term.
Maybe those that think the rest of us are "short-sighted and willfully ignorant" should just get together and take the money out of their own pockets! I, like several of the other people that have commented, have lost my job recently. My family can't afford any more taxes, heck we can barely afford to pay our bills! For all of those that keep saying we would vote no anyway, maybe if we could trust the BOE to do what it's supposed to with the money, they would have a few more votes! No more buying land behind our backs and quit with the raises!
@11 5/7, I like your idea. Us yes voters will pay for a new school, our kids will learn and excel, and your kids can go to the current conditions schools and struggle.
What's that? You want to use the new school too? Pay for it.
@620 5/7, repairs are more costly than a new building. Election costs are $25k to $30k for special elections only. That's such an insignificant amount to compare it's not even funny. Do educate yourself.
I live in an area where there are no income taxes to support the schools. They all seem to be holding up one way another. And don't ask how, I don't research it.
Lower Crust, you have your best ideas, and I can see value in them. Others have their best ideas. Yes, there is more than one way to configure this. However, I also see value in the current plan. We could argue over the various options until the Rapture and then it won't matter. But, we won't get anywhere. Bottom line, this community has known that our buildings are inadequate for a very long time, and right now a good plan is in place. I will check with the treasurer on the financial piece, but in the mean time, I suggest we get on board with a plan, and this is a good one.
NO NEW SCHOOL renovate the high school for 7 thru 12 (it was designed in 1964 to have another floor added) renovate and add on to Woodland for K thru 6. Greenville Board needs to use common sense and honesty. Repairs are always cheaper than tear down and rebuild. Think about it do you as a property owner build a new property if it needs a new roof and painted? The board needs then to develope a excellent maintaince program, which may require hiring someone with experience to design a custom program.
Everyone has their own idea about the best way to configure a school and pay for it. However, we can only choose one plan. The proposed plan is reasonable, if not perfect. The larger point is that this levy should pass by a large percentage because the people of this town need to take drastic steps to prevent the town from dying. People keep saying that the voters have spoken and the BOE needs to listen. I think they misread how their vote is being interpreted. What I hear them saying is young families are not welcome in Greenville. If you are 25-40 years old, you need to look somewhere else. This town is for aging baby boomers who, by the way, aren't willing to sacrifice for their children's generation the way their parents sacrificed for them. Really. It's time to stop battling this. If you want to raise a family, Greenville is not the place for you. The voters have spoken.
What a negative comment and so missinterpreted, people make a community a great place to live our schools only need repaired. To all people young and old Greenville is a wonderful, safe place to raise children and enjoy retired life. I hope the last writer can find a more positive attitude and see Greenville as it is a great to live.
What a negative comment, Greenville is a wonderful place to raise children and also enjoy retirement years. Our schools only need some repairs and are not discourageing people or industry from moving to Greenville. I hope the last writer came develope and find a positive out look for Greenville and it's people.
Anon 9:56AM, what is your age? I'm guessing you are retirement age. Ask someone 25-40 about open enrollment and how it is impacting Greenville schools. You act as though my comments at 8:46AM are negative because I have a negative attitude. The fact that parents are pulling their kids out of Greenville School Distict is not in my head. It is a fact. I am trying to warn people about the consequences of their vote. I wish it were not true but it is. Greenville is not the place to raise a family that it once was. You are kidding yourself if you think "some repairs" to our 100 year old buildings will change things. You can support this levy or watch Greenville die. Don't say you weren't warned.
Yes, Greenville is a town full of "boomers," which keeps out potential young college graduates. Some young people DO want to come back, but so many older workers almost seem to be keeping it from happening because there is just no where for the younger generation to get a job, and "opening up shop" on their own just has not worked unless they have someone else financing it, in many cases.
That comment isn't directed at the levy, but just backing up someone's earlier statement.
Lower Crust, the bill for the facade was "guesstimated" one time to be up to $1,000,000. In fact, the actual repair cost was closer to $500,000.
Bottom line, I think if you read these posts in their entirety the only conclusion would be to go for passage in August.
Our deteriorating schools are a detriment to new industry and business. Management in many existing businesses are choosing to live elsewhere.
Children's retention and openness to learning are enhanced by attractive, comfortable facilities.
Because of our schools, families are choosing open enrollment while remaining in Greenville. This way, they pay our abnormally low tax rates while taking advantage of better facilities in districts with higher tax rates. Seems unfair, but it's the law.
The schools are too outdated and on lots too small to justify repair. Building new will in fact cost less.
Property tax to finance the middle school will cost the average homeowner less than an income tax. And Sales tax is not possible.
Close to 10 years ago school board was thinking for the future when they purchased the property on Ohio. They should have purchased adjoining property, but a public outcry kept them from it. I'm glad we have that prime real estate now for some of our grades.
There is never a better time to do this. The last time a new school was proposed it was during a much better economic climate, and it still failed. Times will always be tough for some. At the same time, construction costs are lower right now.
There is more than one possible configuration, as pointed out by Lower Crust. However, at some point we have to get behind one of these plans. This is a good plan.
Yes, more levies and bond issues will come to us down the pike, because the HS, East and Woodland Heights will need something done to them. However, the state is offering assistance only for the replacement of the JH and South, so we can afford to wait on them. O
We have a pleasant town to live in, with many beautiful amenities. However, our schools are the centerpiece of our town, and right now they are a detriment to our children and to our community at large. In my opinion, we have reached a critical juncture, and there is no more pressing need than this one.
I implore the school board to come behind this in a big way and get this passed.
Old people sure are a problem, what is so surprising that so many of them are so sucessful.Maybe the younger people could learn something from their examples if they would only listen and not think they know it all.
You have been warned, don't listen, believe the negatives about our schools, our community and repairing the schools being more costly than new construction. Vote in a debt load we will all struggle to pay off. Just wait till a new school is built and they want another levy to built another school and a levy for additional operating expences for the schools we have. Will people and industry want to move then? Think long and hard when you vote.
Anon 11:59AM, how many old successful people are in Greenville? I don't see many. In fact, I can only conclude that, if they can't afford $118/yr to build a new school, they are NOT successful. A successful person would realize he or she loses that much in the couch every year. And, by the way, the old SUCCESSFUL people are not the ones voting against the levy.
While we're it at, I wonder if it occurs to these old people you're talking about that only those 70 and older were adults when the last school was built in Greenville. Therefore, the kids and some grandkids of these older people were educated in buildings their ancestors paid for. How fortunate for them their ancestors looked on them more charitably than they look on the next generation. For that matter, I wonder if these older people realize that they have not paid into social security at a rate to sustain their large numbers. But, instead, chose to do just enough to meet the needs of the smaller generation that came before them. I also wonder if they considered that they should have planned ahead for the burden they are placing and will place on medicaid and medicare. Truly impressive record for the group that benefited most from the roaring 80s and 90s. I hope for their sake that the next generation doesn't get the chance to vote on whether to extend medicare/medicaid/soc. sec. to the aging baby boomer generation. That younger group may decide to return the favor--sorry, just can't afford it.
I wonder how recently the people who speak of repairs have been in South School? Historical restoration of a century old building wouldn't even begin to meet the needs of current and future education. Critics should go spend some time in several classrooms WHEN THE STUDENTS ARE THERE, not just during an "open house." I spent two periods there last week, and the building was worse than I remembered compared to where my grand children go to school. The students were fine. You still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
1:39PM, you don't get it. I'm not trying to convince anyone. We're way beyond that now. It's clear nothing is going to change the fact that this town will not support a levy. Guess what. The consequences are coming and it ain't gonna be pretty. Just remember you people asked for it.
For those who question if people really WILL leave the district, I am your answer.
We WILL either take advantage of open enrollment in another district no later than school year 2011-2012 (with the goal of being NEXT school year unless something changes) or WORSE..will move out of the city all together.
Why should you care? I'll tell you.
Not only are we parents with high expectations of our children's education, but we also are parents who have high expectations of our children's conduct. This translates into our kids NEVER disrespecting you or your property. We raise our children to respect you, be obedient and honor you as their elders. Our children will help you if you needed it..or would even give you the forgotten courtesy of offering you, their elder, their seat in the crowded waiting room. We believe that we are not raising children, we are raising future adults so expect them to start practicing citizenship and cooperation NOW. Furthermore, as a family, we are supporters of your community teams, your parks, your charities, both in time and donations. If we MOVE...the person who moves into our home might not have the same standards.
In terms of transferring to another district, while staying in this town, here is why it should matter to you. My school age son is not only well behaved, fairly "easy" on his teachers and serves as a good role model for other students, he also scores "Advanced" on all standardized tests. That means he counts for MORE than one student, thanks to the STate's "value added measure" which gives additional points to districts for students who score in this bracket. What that means to you is that a student like my son in the schools in your community can help to counter balance poor test scores of underperforming students. Raised test scores translate into better school district ratings. Better school district ratings translate into higher property values for YOU and more appeal for prospective businesses which would richen our economy. When you lose a student like my son, and make no changes to the current school conditions/systems, and the community continues to send the message to folks like us that they are not as comitted to education as we are, don't expect that he will be replaced. The unfortunate reality is that new families with similar expectations and/or high performing students will do exactly what we will do. Your only hope is to nurture the children in the "average" and "above average" bracket, allow them to potentially reach the above-average and advanced level. However, that kind of change is unlikely if the community continues to accept and excuse BELOW AVERAGE facilities. Do I claim that a building will automatically produce higher test scores..not NECESSARILY. However, I will gladly and boldly state that when a community is comitted to it's children's education it SHOWS in both buildings AND test scores. Meaning, it is no accident that the highest performing districts have parents involved in their children's educations, teachers who feel supported by the community and students who are comfortable in their surroundings. The same way that you will be hard pressed to find communities with adequate facilities whose parents/teachers/students don't also share the same traits above. More to come...
Cont'd from above ****** Now, to quell the assumptions you may have developed from this post, here are the hard core facts of OUR family. My husband is self employed. By state standards we barely are above poverty level and could qualify (if we so chose) for DOZENS of state/community supplement programs. I am a stay at home mother, my hubby and I wear clothes from thrift stores, I am an avid couponer AND we have no insurance, with each person in our family having a significant medical history. The point of this is that if WE can see where we can save $3 a week, I find it terribly difficult to understand how others can not. Worse, I find it terribly difficult to understand why WE are the minority of our socio-economic class..in our beliefs and priorities.
So yes, we WILL move and/or move our son out of this district. This is REAL, this is not imagined as a poster above indicated. That being said, if we did transfer our son out of the district, I will NOT stop advocating for this cause. You see, even if I don't have a child in the district..I am still a resident here, I still care about our kids and community.
So, in that case, I will be GLAD to help pay for this even if my son is not enrolled. Someone like me paid part of my way, someone like me (potentially without kids in the district) saw their cooperation with school levies and bond issues and an investment in their future. I owe their kids and grand kids the same courtesy, and more..the same opportunites they afforded me.
First of all, the school levy had my vote. Then the school started calling my cell phone daily before the levy. That ended my vote. Like I needed to be reminded.
To LGB: By far the best written letter in support of a school levy. It is clear from its content that you were well educated and that you desire the same opportunity for your son. And, it was so refreshing to actually read words that made sense and did not abuse the English language.
Alex B, you mean the rest of didn't make sense and abused the English language? True, LGB did a great job, but don't put down the others in your compliment to LGB.
I am sure there are plenty of "old, successful" people in Greenville, but I have seen more than my fair share of young persons pushed out of town by these types who were TRYING to learn from them, but they just were not giving them a chance. All too often, the older folks did not want to learn from the new generation how things were done and cast aside the youngers because they did things "differently."
I have read everything to this point and want to give my 2 cents on some issues I have read.
Many different ways to fix the problems are true. Anyone who argues that our facilities don't need replaced is beyond these discussions. The BOE needs to listen to the public if they want to pass the levy. The public is the ones who are going to make the decision. They need to find out why people are voting no. Some of it is due to the economy and that is understandable. I don't feel anyone should be judging someone on the decision to vote no due to their economic situation. That is no ones place to do in this great country. However some of the no vctes are for other reasons. Why are these people voting no for other reasons? If you throw a choice out there that the majority of voters did not have any part in deciding, then this is what happens..failure. Let the public, or from what I understand even people who work for the school, have some say in how this all shakes out. The planning, the configuration, etc. Are there others plans for the other buildings? I have seen no such detailed plan. My advice is to collect data and make an educated decision on what the people want, and communicate the whole plan.
Secondly, I am positive that the teachers of this District are going to do the best job they can at educating their students to the best of their ability. If the resources they currently have is all they have, they will make it work. If it is a new school, that would be a benefit, and would make education easier. But don't slam our teachers. They are hard-working individuals, who will get the job done regardless. So to say that if we don't have a new building, that will result in a poor education is ridiculous. A new building will not make any teacher, a smarter teacher. So those who cry open-enrollment, you have no clue. Ever heard of Pride? Yes we could say that Pride would equal a new school. But if it doesn't happen, then what you are saying is "I will take my ball and go home". "I will not stay and fight to see this thing through". Quitters attitude. From what I have been told, take a look this year, as every year at the graduation. How many scholarships are our kids awarded for academics? I think our kids rake in quite a bit of money and are prepared for college. I don't think our State scores are in the sewer either.
Finally, I know some teachers. Before everyone starts slamming them for what they make, that is whole new topic. They took a pay freeze last year. Insurance rates are not paid in full. Get some facts before you start throwing around opinions as fact.
JD: You can call it being a quitter. I call it being a realist and would suggest that you may be somewhat idealistic/naive about the situation. Listening to the public is not the problem. 8 years ago the district formed a committee of 40 or so private citizens to get input from all corners about how to configure new school buildings. That group met for months and held numerous public forums. Very few attended.
The problem is there simply is no consensus in this town because people do not support schools. They will say they do and if only one or two things were changed, they would be a yes. They're full of it. They will find any and every excuse to avoid getting on board with a plan to build a school-no matter what the plan is.
It is time to stop wasting time on the people of the school district. They will not realize the harm they are doing to themselves until it is too late. Frankly, they don't deserve another chance to do the right thing. Sadly, it is time for young families to leave Greenville--it is already happening.
Everyone has their opinion on this topic and clearly people are dug in and unwilling to see any side but their own. Right or wrong we can forget about the 8.8 million we would have gotten from old Uncle Sam (i.e. "us")to help with the new facility. The majority of Greenville is happy with the status quo so let's not waste any more money on another special election in August. Eventually when the buildings have deteriorated beyond safe conditions we will foot the entire bill ourselves to build anew. (repairs on both South and the Jr High are already in excess of 100% of a new facilty)
That said I just want to throw this question out to all those struggling so hard in these times: why can't Sonic find enough employees to open? Why aren't there lines of people there day after day fighting for those jobs?
Are the jobs Sonic offer (and other similiar jobs) beneath these people? One thing I have learned as time goes by: those that want to work, find a way to work. Those that do not find an excuse.
I think Greenville has deeper seeded issues than no lines at Sonic. It is a problem with too many people coming into Greenville with no desire to work in the first place and just wanting the government handouts. Stop the section 8 and HUD and get rid of a lot of the riff-raff that is dragging the community down. Plus, why take a job at Sonic when the government pays you more to NOT work?
Ok, if you have a medical degree or engineering degree or law degree and don't want to take a job at Sonic, that is one thing. Those degrees probably would do more harm to a person's future than good would be done in the short term. But if your highest level of education is high school and you need a job, start sprinting to Wagner Ave! But, yeah, once again, if you haven't already made the trip to apply for a job, you probably fall into the category of being content with taking government handouts and are waiting for the next "welfare check day" at Wal-Mart.
Working a job, no matter what it is, will never hurt your future employment. All an employer wants is dedication and gumption. If you prove that you do what you "gotta" do, it says a lot.
If anyone cares ~ I voted no because I do not trust our BOE. If they get this passed we all know the next arguement will be "how can we prepare our youth for college when they go from a state of the art building into the High School before they are shipped off to their 'higher' education?" Lower Crust has some great thinking points about changing the focus from what the State is "offering" currently and what may be around the corner as an opprotunity for us! I do agree that something has to change...the buildings as they stand are unacceptable however we can't vote yes because this is our only option...we need to vote yes for a plan we can all belive in and believe it to be the best direction for our community (not the only choice we have)!
For those who are somehow in doubt about how our schools measure up, here are the cold hard facts.
Based on ONLY the school districts in our county, ALL OF WHICH OFFER OPEN ENROLLMENT, we pale miserably.
The 7 school districts in our county are Greenville, Versailles, Franklin-Monroe, Ansonia, Arcanum, Missinewa and Tri-Village. Here is how we measure up in ranking 1st-7th, 1st being the best performing district of the group on statewide tests, 7th being the worst performing district of the group on state wide tests:
3RD GRADE: Reading: 7th Math: 6th
4TH GRADE: Reading: 4th Math: 6th Writing: 5th
5TH GRADE: Reading: 6th Math: 6th Science:5th Social Studies: 7th
11TH GRADE OHIO GRAD TESTS (An average of those taking Grad tests in grade 10 & 11): Reading: 7th Math: 7th Writing: 6th Science: 6th Social Studies: 7th
And perhaps the worst news yet:
Graduation Rate: 7th, with only 82.4 of our students graduating, the next LOWEST is Arcanum, with 94.1% graduation rate!
Further more, our district ranks 7th in the county for attendance rate. That means in the ONE WEEK that the school district is monitored and evaluated for state "results" (before which the schools/teachers etc. TELL the parents to have their kids in school for that purpose, so in some ways one could argue the numbers are actually artificially inflated), more of our children were absent than any other school in the county.
The moral of this data is that we are failing miserably accross the board in this district in comparison to the other schools in this county. That being said, those of us who were "sticking it out", hoping for a renewed comittment of the community to the most basic of things...safe buildings, much less higher standards for our district's performance, are discouraged.
Not one of these better performing districts is more than 20 mins away. EVERY ONE OF THEM offers open enrollment, meaning I can send my child there at no cost, I would only have to provide transportation.
Gigi: You are part of the problem, not part of the solution. This is the real world. All 15,000 of us in the school district do not get to choose a plan which meets our individual standards. The schools are falling apart. The BOE has put forth a reasonable plan to deal with it. It is not a perfect plan. However, it's time to grow up, be thankful others are doing the difficult work of putting the plan together and support it.
I know it's all the rage to cite test scores like they actually mean something, but the results of high-stakes standardized tests are so flawed as to be virtually meaningless. Greenville's attendance and graduation rates are troubling, to be sure, but using test scores to judge the quality of a district is a bad idea. Standardized tests (especially the ones used at the state level) are shallow and reductive measures of test-taking abilities, and not, by and large, of subject-matter skill or intelligence.
So, rather than use test scores as a way of determining whether or not to support the building of a new school, I would encourage you instead to seek out the research which discusses how modern, comfortable, high-tech facilities positively affects both teacher and student performance.
Rob,I am anti-test, however our argument against them is not pertinent here. There is a lesson to be learned from this data, no matter WHO you blame the scores on (Or credit high scores TO), the district, the methods, the school building, the teachers, the students, the parents OR THE VERY NATURE OF THE TEST ITSELF. Bottom line is that we are at the bottom in our county and no amount of arguing the merit of the tests changes the fact that these scores translate into decreased home values, less new economic growth, and loss of students to other districts.
Not to mention that while (AGAIN) I dislike the testing process, I think our graduation rate (non-disputable..no "test" to blame there) reflects that perhaps there is at least some merit in these numbers. We are among the lowest from 3rd-11th grade and have the lowest grad rate by a mile...therefore whether we like it or not, this data indicates that the end result supports the preliminary findings.
I will GLADLY supply research/studies/papers and findings that support the idea that adequate surroundings are beneficial to student moral and performance and have done so to advocate groups already. However, I am wondering if you are truly interested in those (anyone can find this data) or if that was just an attempt to divert the focus away from the ugly numbers.
The point of my post was to clarify 2 things:
1) The total misconception, and quite frankly gross misrepresentation by some that "our district performance is fine. It's not THAT bad, so we don't need to change anything."
2) The idea of losing students/families/teachers to county districts is REAL. It is not imagined, it is not "dramatic", it is imminent.
Therefore, the time IS now. Any "team's" performance is directly dependent on all participant's COOPERATION. As a community, we play a part on this team, with the goal being providing the best education possible for our children. Constantly blaming "the board" is as unfair as always blaming a pitcher, a goalie or a quarterback for a loss. We all have to do our part.
Furthermore, in terms of attendance rates, is it POSSIBLE that PERHAPS our students are not in school b/c they are ill MORE than other districts? Or, to "soothe" the sketptics, do our children PERHAPS "avoid" school more than other districts in the county? Gee, why might that be? What do other districts have that we don't?
LGB, I am for the new school. However, I want to point something out about those rankings, including the graduation rates, that cannot be helped by a new school: the home life of many of the kids in our district effects a student's achievement more than any other factor. The socio-economic status of a higher percentage of our kids is lower than kids in the surrounding districts. They don't have parents who care or know how to help them out. They don't get encouragement at home. So, I guess I'm saying that better, more comfortable facilities will help, but they won't solve all the problems for these kids.
The buildings have nothing to do with the quality of education our children are getting. Maybe the BOE needs to focus on education not buildings. If I had children in school I would send them to another district, not for the buildings but for the quality of education. Isn't education what counts?
LGB @ 12:59 - Seriously, you think a student that skips school NOW is going to start attending because there is a new school?
Sorry, any arguments you now place on this site will have to be related back to that one, because it is just so blindly idiotic. If a student wants to skip school, they don't do it because of a crappy building. That's just absurd to even suggest.
We're arguing at cross purposes here, LGB. I grew up in Greenville, am a product of Greenville schools, feel like I received a good education in them, and, at least partially because of that education, became a teacher myself (and one that now specializes in standards and standardized testing). I've long been disgusted by Greenville's perpetual refusal to support education, and that continues to this day, even though I don't live in the area and have no vested interest in seeing the current levy pass. I believe strongly in building this school.
My point in bringing up the irrelevancy of test scores is that they are, as you point out, a potential distraction from the real issue. I understand that people who have been led to believe that test scores actually mean something view them as a measure of school quality. They'll continue to do so as long as other people persist in presenting them as a measure of school quality. There are, I think, other, better arguments to be made in favor of building the school (such as the one you make in your post at 12:59 AM), and presenting test scores as evidence of the way the schools are failing its students and their parents is sort of unfair, when those numbers, I would argue, have little to do with the quality of Greenville's schools in comparison to other schools in the area.
Does anyone know if Greenville and/or Darke County schools have applied for the federal Race to the Top education funds? The deadline is today. Without support from our school districts (administrators),Ohio is not apt to get this $400 million dollars for our Ohio schools.
To those who point to the low test scores and say that we should stop worrying about building a new school and focus on educating better, I wish to offer a thought or two. We have permitted subsidized housing in Greenville and drawn in welfare recipients from around the county. The children of these people, on average, test poorly. The result is their low test scores are removed from Mississinawa and added to Greenville. On the side, every other school district around the county has a new building and they have, through open enrollment, pulled the kids of parents who really care about their kids' education into the county schools. Those kids, on average, test very well. The result is Greenville's test scores go down (again) and FM's scores go up. The kids left in Greenville are a combination of those here to collect welfare and those whose parents don't care enough to go elsewhere. A new school building is the single most important thing the BOE can do to increase test scores--merely because they'll stop losing so many of the good students.
Dear Anonymous May 12, 2010 3:58 PM I am not suggesting that each of us "get to choose a plan which meets our individual standards." However the Board has put together ONE plan and tried to shove it down my throat...when the voters didn't like this plan did they try to reinvent or change IN ANY WAY? Instead you argue "The BOE has put forth a reasonable plan to deal with it...be thankful others are doing the difficult work of putting the plan together and support it." I will not support a bad plan. The argument of this is our plan - you should support it or your against education - just doesn't sit very well with me. I can support education and not approve of the current proposal...they are not exclusive.
Have the county put on a sales tax that is distributed to all the county schools according to student population. It's not that hard figure out if you just step back and look at it logically. No more real estate tax...if you want to drive out business and keep new ones from coming in, go ahead and pass it.
FYI: The repair/maintenance costs are built in to this levy. Please read and know the information. Will we need other levies in the future for more schools? Yes. Would it be better to ask for money for K-12 instead of 5-8? That way it would be one money all at once. Also: Homeowners, it's the American dream to own a home, and owning that home comes with expenses...taxes too.
@ 912: a sales tax distributed to all schools based on enrollment is hardly as straight forward as you'd like it to be.
mainly, do you realize just how high of a sales tax you'd be talking about in order to generate enough revenue for a new school PLUS give money to other districts?
Gigi: The school district has been trying to figure this out for nearly 10 YEARS. Where have you been? This is the "only" plan now because everyone rejected the last plan 8 years ago. And, I missed the part where Gigi jumped in and grabbed the torch and led us all to promised land after THAT failed levy.
If you had run for school board or done anything to contribute to this process, you might be worth listening to. But, like SO MANY others, you haven't. It's easy to say the current plan is bad. It's difficult to spend years figuring out how to save a dire situation and have people like you (who do NOTHING) poke holes in it. IF this town moves forward it will be despite, not because, of people like you. I'm sick of hearing from all you thumbtwittlers who bash the people who are working hard to improve things. Lead, follow or get out of the way.
I would like to know if this new school is going to be made of brick and mortar. So many schools build these new schools that have these grand entrances and beautiful brick work that is not necessary. There are other alternatives in building that can be cheaper then brick and mortar. Also south school is no better than the middle school so the schools will be asking for a new school there. If the schools want to give me the head then give me the shaft as well. I would much rather take it all at once then bit by bit. I lived in another state where k-12 was in one campus but separate from each other so there were no high schools with elementary. One location so the schools staff was smaller, the start times were offset, so school bus drivers could do multiple pick-ups. These schools were not made of brick and mortar and grand entrances but they did what they needed to and gave the kids a great education.
Oh, and I too am interested if Greenville City Schools participated in Ohio's "Race To The Top", either in round 1, 2 or both? I never saw mention of it in the paper, thru the schools etc...
Anonymous May 13, 2010 8:28 AM, You said "On the side, every other school district around the county has a new building and they have, through open enrollment, pulled the kids of parents who really care about their kids' education into the county schools".
Sorry but you are wrong. Arcanums school is not complete, they are still in their old schools. Franklin-Monroe is not even close to being in their new school. FM will not be in their new school until the 2011-2012 school year. They are in buldings that are just as or very close to the ages of Greenville's school buildings. How does FM students score so high on their tests, When they are in OLD outdated buildings????????????
John H., you know the reason. It's been stated before. In Greenville, there is a higher percentage of students from broken, unstable households. Often they are from the lower rungs of the socio-economic ladder. Students from stable, supportive home environments flourish almost anywhere, because they get support from home. that's why the Montessori kids do so well in their less-than-adequate building. Like it or not, our kids need all the help they can get. New schools do help, especially the disadvantaged. That has been proven by independent studies.
John H: No, you are wrong and simple and a threat to Greenville's future. Sorry but I have a new policy of zero tolerance for excuse makers like you who are ruining this town.
Open enrollment HAS pulled kids from Greenville and not just a few. Whether the schools are complete or not, people know they are coming and they are leaving Greenville. It's an obvious point but ask someone who actually has access to the numbers.
Your comment about the scores generated at FM is, again, simple. First, FM IS building a new school. So, apparently, the people that you point to as an example of the ones who know how to produce quality students disagree with you about the relationship between new buildings and quality education.
Second, your assertion that kids can be educated in old buildings is, under the right circumstances, true but misses the point. Kids at Harvard get good educations in old buildings. There are many differences but the main difference is people want to go to Harvard. Greenville needs to compete for kids. In order for Greenville to compete for quality kids and the families and businesses that come with them, it must have up-to-date schools. We are on a downward spiral of taking in families that don't help us and losing the families that do. Even worse, things will snowball as the departure of quality families will result in lower scores and fewer quality people in the distict. As a result, even more people will give up and leave.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why you and 57% of the voters can't see that or choose to ignore it. This is not a close call. You don't have be one of those brilliant people who were educated in an old building to understand it.
I believe the levy would have passed if there were more grades added to the new building. It seems that only 4 grades is not enough. I thought when they bought the land that the jr. high and high school would be there. There is enough room for them. I am not young but I went to a brick school house grades 1 thru 8 and got a good education. That school house is still in good shape and is now used as apartments. I feel the Memorial Hall has lots of room and could be used for at least 4 grades and the offices there could cut down and used to a better advantage. I am not against a new school, I just feel that more grades be added to the new school.
To Anonymous May 14, 2010 8:30 AM. I have a zero tolerance for a dumbass like you. You call me simple and state that I am wrong. Prove I am wrong, Arcanum is still not in their new school (fact)! FM has not even started to frame their new building, they are still doing ground work (fact)! So where am I wrong? Poor quality families moving into Greenville has nothing to do with the school. A new school will not bring in new companies or jobs. That is a city thing that needs to be fix. Anyways, time will tell. If you cry babies get your new school and 10 to 20 years later Greenville will be in the same shape and the school system will still be at the bottom of the county. Just remember " I told you so". You have to fix the system and new buildings don't do that.
To LGB on May 12 comment. Do you know the stats for how Greenville ranked before all these other schools were built. Did Greenville still rank 6th and 7th then. I don't think these schools advanced pass Greenville just because they built new schools.
John H: I already proved you were wrong. And, it's clear (and not surprising) from your response that you don't even understand the issue or the point I was making. Frankly, I'm not going to back up to explain it to you again. PS Be careful. Cry babies like me might give you a job some day.
Nowhere did I say their scores were higher than greenville ONLY because they built new schools. Their scores are higher because they have people both in the schools and outside of the schools (in the community and/or as parents), who are commited to excellence and PRACTICE cooperation.
The data was provided for many reasons, but the two most pertinent to the conversation that preceded my post was to quell two major mischaracterizations and misconceptions.
1) The idea that everything is "fine", we don't need to change a thing. One poster even said, "our scores aren't THAT bad".
2) The idea that those who caution the continued neglect of the schools (including their structures) will result in decreased student enrollment (kids going to the better performng schools), lost "good" teachers, less new residency, and decreased new industry (translation: JOBS), are being "dramatic", are imagining this consequence and/or are exaggerating the possibility.
In simple terms: People who vote "yes" to reasonable school issues (ya know, like sending kids to schools that aren't falling down and aren't unsafe)tend to also be people who are actively involved in THE PARTNERSHIP that is their child's education. This requires cooperation of ALL, no ONE entity..a parent..a student..a district..a teacher can do it alone.
To Anonymous May 14, 2010 9:56 PM. I have a very good secured job, so I would never need anything from you (job). Plus I would never want to work for someone who can't admit they are wrong. You are really trying to tell me that Arcanum and FM are in their new buildings. My first comment was that someone stated on this tread that all county schools are in new buildings. That is not true, Arcanum and FM are not in their new buildings. That was my point. No one understands your point, because it make no sense. Go ahead and hate me all you want. Just know this, my children are in a good school system and yes like I stated before I have a very good job. So I don't need anything from you. Yes,You can think I'm full of it, but I am already thinking you are. You probably have a crappy job and not in a job position to hire anyone. Have a great night!
John, for the love of God, Anonymous NEVER said the students were physically in their new buildings.
What he said was that the very people you are crediting with giving/getting a good education in OLD buildings are the very people who saw the merit in buliding NEW buildings.
Using your logic, that a good education can be obtained in old buildings, then those people NEVER would have voted in a NEW building, after all they were getting a "good enough" education for their kids in the old ones.
Thus, the point Anonymous was making (of which despite your belief, I totally understand this and ALL of his/her points) is that if THEY can see merit in newer buildings when already achieving "superior numbers" in OLD ONES, then we should DEFINITELY see merit in it, considering our "numbers" are NOT even close to what theirs are....
John H: OK, I take it back. I don't know why I insisted on stating that the schools at FM and Arcanum are complete. I guess I just got carried away because there's no question that's exactly what I said and clearly YOU understand that. Now that you've shown me the error of my ways, I am opposed to a new school and all the evils that accompany it.
Thank goodness for you and your ability to sift through the shades of gray and just lay it out there once and for all--the schools at FM and Arcanum are not complete. That's right. I said it. They are NOT complete. Guys like me just need to stop pretending that they are complete and finally man up. Thank you John H., truthteller, sage guardian of the common good.
PS Why is everyone on the main board making fun of you?
Some really good dialogue here. Nice to see others points of view. These types of discussions can be beneficial, if open minds are reading.
LGB - If you are referring to someone saying scores aren't that bad, you must be referring to me. I said, if you scroll up, they were not in the sewer. My definition was meant to say the job is getting done. Superior? No. Horrible? No. Then you want to start to compare apples to oranges. I did not bring up anything about Greenville being the best in the county, or even the worst.
Like was said above, take scores with a grain of salt. Many factor affect them. If you are middle of the road, you could fall either way, and it is an unknown. If you are superior, then great. If your are horrible, then back to the drawing board.
The whole point of the test scores comment was to say Greenville is not a horrible District for a child to go and get a quality education. Now I am not going to waste my time looking up your data, but your rankings could probably be better evaluated if your would have actually listed the percentages. Because if Greenville was ranked 6th in something they may have had 84.3%, behind 84.6% & 85.1%. So how close were they to 4th? I'm sure you can follow that analogy.
LGB-What is interesting is that it seems you want to blast anything and everything. Conclusion based on your posts. If this levy does not pass, people will open enroll elsewhere (Buildings). Then, test scores are low in the county for Greenville (Education). Why bring up test scores on a forum dealing with buildings? I only did to ask why would people leave? Because they don't have a nice pretty building? Then the hammer post, FM and Arcanum are still in old building and have the appearance of providing a better education. Brilliant analogy!!
I agree with some above comments. I am prepared to vote for all new buildings. Willing to pay more and get it all done in one big shot.
Considering the process that took place, I am not sure where we stand with State money. Once again, it has not been told to the public. Use your heads. When all the county schools were preparing for their buildings, it was planned for years. This Greenville thing, I believe has been thrown out there in less than a year. I think the money that all the county schools got is comng down the road for Greenville, hopefully in a better economy. This is not the only offer. This slam dunk process is some other offer from the State, not the big offer. If this is the so called final offer from the State, why are we not talking about the other buldings? I do not think the State lets you dip in the kitty whenever you want. Someone please enlighten us, because I am ignorant to this part of it.
JD: Our District had its chance at the Ohio's Facility Planning Commission money (what you refer as the State money) 7-8 years ago. The District spent nearly a year getting input from the public on how to take advantage of the state dollars then. Every other school district in the county took that money and ran with it and they are now building schools with it (except for FM and Arcanum which have already completed construction--that one was for you John H.)
As usual, unlike ALL of the other districts in the County, the people of Greenville School District shot down the levy to get that free money and the comprehensive plan proposed by THAT school board which involved replacement of all school buildings in the District.
Now, because of the partial collapse of the Jr. High, we are getting another bite at the apple. Instead of being required to replace all the buildings (as before), we're permitted to address only the buildings in most dire need of replacing. This is a good thing for us because 1) it is the more fiscally conservative approach--the deal most districts got was to replace all buildings at once or get nothing (a huge price tag) and 2) because the State has actually increased the percentage it will subsidize (the $8.8M) because of the condition of our buildings--I see that last part as the State essentially saying to us "because its clear the people of Greenville School District don't care about sending their kids to buildings that may collapse on them, we'll throw some more money at you and see if your kids' lives will be worth it to you then"
Regardless, this State money is a windfall to our district AND it's a measured response because it narrowly addresses only those buildings which are most in need. It is, as I have said repeatedly above, a no brainer.
Amazingly, John H, Gigi and 57% of the voters in this District have looked at this gift horse and smacked it in the face. All the while good people that I know (the kind that contibute to the community and hire people) are leaving the district out of disgust. All of that is set against a backdrop of a town that is desperately in need of something positive to happen in order to keep families and businesses from thinking that we are a dying, selfish, backward town that will not invest in its future.
What angers me most is my belief that, if a "no" voter changes his vote to "yes", they still aren't doing their fair share. They're simply getting out of the way of those of us who do more than our fair share to save this town from itself. I'm reminded of the scene in the movie Jerry McGuire when sports agent Tom Cruise implores his idiot football playing client to get out of his own way--"Help me, help you. Help ME, help YOU!" That's all I'm asking.
I just did some checking at the Board Of Elections Website.
The election you speak of 8 years ago was for a K-5 building. It was not for all the buildings.
Correct me if I am wrong, but when the State comes in and says your number is up, you MUST replace or renovate all schools at that time, or choose which ones to deal with at that time. But it a one time deal. Why would we we have not replaced K-8 since the High School seems to be the only school that would be kept? That does not make sense.
I still say that ultimately, our number to make the big replacement has not, and is not up. Trust me, I have asked this question to different indivduals within the school sytstem, and I don't get the same answer.
So with the planning of Greenville vs. other Districts in the county, and the range of answers I have heard to the question "Is this our time, our number?", I am skeptical.
Finally I am not saying I am against building, I say do it all now. Because if Greenville is lucky enough to pass a levy now, how easy will it be in the future?
While there is a small percent of the voters that truly can't afford it there is a much larger percentage that can but claim otherwise. These are the ones that can afford cable TV, alcohol, cigs, cell phones, eating out,tattoo's etc. but they can't pony up a hundred bucks a year? That is pretty sad, but reflects society at large as "me first", or "I got mine". Well congrats, you got yours, enjoy it.
JD: I'm not sure what you are asking for in terms of numbers/percentages.
I have all of them and chose not to post them for fear of confusing the issue at hand..how we "compare" to the county schools in terms of our state scores.
That being said, I'm not sure what you need to make your point? Is it how FAR below we are when we are "last"? Or is it how we measure up against the entire state?
I'm glad to provide the numbers, (or you can find them yourself at the ODE website) but I must tell you, I fail to understand the purpose of quantifying LAST or ALMOST LAST. When we are talking of losing students, teachers, families and industry to communites just 20 mins or less away, last is LAST. A reasonable person would choose 1st, 2nd or 3rd, well before LAST. However, if this is what you want, this I will give you.
Further, if it is how we measure up to the state average, I'm glad to provide those numbers, too. However, if your argument is that comparing schools WITHIN OUR OWN COUNTY is unfair, (apples to oranges), then well, I'm not sure how comparing our schools to the richest suburban neighborhoods and poorest urban ghettos is even REMOTELY fair. I mean, being better than the worst hood in the state is no more a bragging point than those in the wealthiest school districts with unlimited resources bragging over being better than us.
Bottom line, comparing within our county IS fair. WE are are all rural. We are all within a short distance of one another (unlike some counties where the districts are HOURS apart). We all shop in the same places and many of our community members work in the other communities and vice versa. Many of us have family in other districts as they do in ours. Our community resources, parks, activities, programs etc. are all similar. You're not gonna get a lot more apples to apples than this.
I guess my whole feeling on it is maybe Greenville does not stack up as the highest with these scores, but the doom and gloom picture painted by some is not reality either. I would hope Greenville realizes their shortcoming with the scores and has implemented some plan to try and improve them.
I would hope that they are striving to improve those scores.
The point about posting %, instead of ranks looks like this.
5th Grade Reading Versailles 90.6% Arcanum 89.9% Franklin Monroe 85.9% Ansonia 83.6% Tri-Village 74.1% Greenville 72.8% Mississinawa 72.5%
Many conclusions to be drawn from statistics. 75% is what the State requires to get the accreditation. How many more students would have needed to pass this test for those 3 Districts to get 75%? 2, 5, 12? Is Ansonia a poor educating District because they are 7 % points behind Versailles in 5th grade reading?
I agree, last is last. But I would think each District in the county faces it's own unique challenges.
JD, when we are below state minimum EVER it is bad news, especially when the argument is "Comparing WITHIN THE COUNTY is unfair, it is apples to oranges".
Well, when we fall below the state average, an average that takes into account the urban innercity worst-of-the-worst demographics (which I would argue is REALLY comparing apples to oranges), thus driving the state average low...that makes our lack of meeting the state average even WORSE.
I am really not trying to be cantankerous with you..truly I am not, but I really don't understand the point you are making. Are you drawing a parallel between the number of students enrolled and low test scores? (I am truly trying to understand, again, I am NOT being combative, I am here to open MY mind, too).
Plus, I would offer that if the adversion to facing this kind of data comes from a dislike of "the testa" themselves, there are numbers like this, which one can not blame ANY test solely on:
Graduation Rate: Greenville: 82.4% Versailles: 99.1% Franklin M: 96.1% Ansonia: 96.5% Arcanum: 94.1% Missinewa: 97.3% Tri Village: 100%
Also, remember, I dislike the tests,too..tho not really for the reasons being discussed here, so I will not veer off topic.
However, AGAIN, when we are talking of the topic at hand, what amounts to: HOW NEW SCHOOL FACILITIES ARE BENEFICIAL TO THE COMMUNITY, here is the point I've tried to make:
When new families, new teachers and new buisnesses "scout" for areas in which to live/set up shop, our county is relatively small.
Meaning, a transferred (for the sake of business) family could live in ANY community (and utilize their schools) in the county, yet work in another..with very little drive time.
Meaning, a teacher could live in any community, but choose to work in another district, with very little drive time.
Meaning, a buisness could choose to open up a branch in any community, knowing they can draw employees from anywhere in the county with little drive time.
All of this being said, to be COMPETITIVE in any of these areas (for new families, "good" teachers and new industry..PLUS maintaining the ones we have), we must recognize our "competition" WITHIN THE COUNTY.
Right now, our test scores (which ALL OF THE ABOVE LOOK AT, CONSIDER AND "FACTOR IN"-make no mistake) are aweful.
Now, THAT being said, here is what NEW FACILITIES "show" these people who would consider us (forget for now all of the research that indicates adequate facilities in and of themselves DO translate to increased student performance..just for the sake of argument)
Our attention to his matter "says" this:
1) We have come together as a community, even after a long time of not seeing eye to eye, and have recognized we must work together to improve our schools and district. Therefore, we are NOT what our test numbers show, we have taken the first step towards trying to change.
2) Since we now have put our money where are mouths are, we as a community will take a more active role in our child's education at home. "I'm paying for my kid's 'fancy new school', I'm gonna make sure he does his part." Therefore, we are NOT what our test numbers show, we now will be more involved AT HOME, which will make a positive difference in the scores.
3) Since the above 2 are true, the community has come together and the parents themselves have pledged to take a more active role in their child's education (if only to make sure that since they spent the money, their kid better do their end of the deal), we as a community will now hold our teachers and our district more accountable. Therefore, we are NOT what these test scores show. Since we have begun OUR personal commitment, we will now also more closely monitor the district's.
These new facilities will "show" people considering our community ALL of the above. Therefore, when the familys, teachers and businesses look at Greenville, they will NOT be able to give as much "value" to those test scores. They will SEE with their own two eyes that we as a community have come together to work towards a change.
Right now, these prospects have only this information to go on (in terms of the schools/community comitment to education):
1) Bad scores in comparison to other "options" nearby.
2) 15 years of "no votes" on school issues.
3) Dilapidated, antiquated, potentially unsafe school buildings.
THIS is our choice. What message do we want to send?
If you do nothing but bicker and state inaccuracies as facts, then time will continue to pass. The state can close the schools in question and the students can be sent to the now not so new county schools. You either plan for the future or the future bites you in the tuckis.
no - the people have spoken
ReplyDeleteThey need a revision- Income tax or sales tax NOT real estate!
ReplyDeleteAND how much money are they spending on Special election fees?
Listen to the PEOPLE, Its not the buildings.
Has maintenance logs been checked lately?
Absolutely Not! Hasn’t enough taxpayer monies been wasted trying to get MORE taxpayer money!
ReplyDeleteSource for funding will not get any better than this.
ReplyDeleteIt's been stated 1 million times and i'm not sure why people don't understand.
Income tax would mean a higher burden on the individual to contribute (businesses would not have to share the financial burden, like walmart, mcdonalds, etc). It would mean a smaller tax base, and therefore more per contributor.
Sales tax can only be applied at the state or county level. The entire county isn't going to pay for greenville's school. Further more, a sales tax would have the same problem as an income tax, less of a tax base means more per contributor. Additionally, sales taxes tend to hit lower income households harder, since a larger % of their income is spent on taxable goods (higher income families have an easier time saving 'extra' income which is therefore not taxes).
Both of those are bad ideas.
Spend on elections is a valid concern, but with the state money disappearing, they'll see it as a worthwhile expense (i'm predicting). You'll just have to take time to go vote no again, i guess.
also, what do you mean it isn't the buildings? I'm hoping you don't mean the buildings don't need replaced? because they're horrid and most definitely do need replaced.
i'm not happy about it, but i think the board has to put this back on the ballot as it is the last chance to get the state dollars
ReplyDeleteMaybe if it were a sales tax....no way if it remains property tax! At the same time, the people have spoken....TWICE!
ReplyDeleteObviously, the voters are not going to pass this levy. Why waste money on another election? Try saving money in a building fund for a few years and show the taxpayers you know how to manage money. I agree, renters should pay for schools too.
ReplyDeleteYes. I hope they do and I hope this time the district can support the school and its students.
ReplyDeleteKeep putting it back on the ballot !!I hate to see the state dollars vanish.
ReplyDeleteWhen people voted "no", do you think they realized they were saying "no" to $8.8 million??
ReplyDeleteThe people have spoken not twice but 4 times. Remember two times on the ballot for a K-12. Every time has been NO. I think the BOE needs to think of a new way to get the money. A sales tax is the most evenly divided way. Why burden the homeowners.
ReplyDeleteBECAUSE A SALES TAX IS NOT FEASIBLE (NOR POSSIBLE).
ReplyDeleteThe people have spoken, but the people also obviously don't listen. How many times does it have to be said that it CAN NOT be a sales tax. And what about checking the maintenence logs? You can look at the maintenence logs for my '77 pick up truck. The maintenence has been done and that is how I can still drive it, but its a 34 year old vehicle and will need replaced.
ReplyDeleteNO, they need to start planning for the future before it has to happen. Maybe the Administration should take a cut like the rest of us. Our family has gone down to 1 income and we will be lucky if I can pay our house payment alone more taxes. I have cut all our spending even going to the grocery. Enough with the $25,000 for each special election. No is No.
ReplyDeleteWhy do people keep insisting on a sales tax?
ReplyDeleteThe school board can not put on a sales tax! period.
And how would a sales tax not burden a homeowner? don't they shop here also?
SALES TAX CAN ONLY BE APPLIED AT THE COUNTY AND STATE LEVELS. IT IS NOT LEGAL, THERE IS NO WAY, WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TO A SALES TAX! What is so hard about that concept to you people? You vote no and don't even listen to what they're saying!
ReplyDeleteRenters are not property owners. But somebody owns that property and that person pays the property tax. Each piece of property pays in, it makes no difference who pays it. If you have fifteen pieces of property, you should pay it all. It's your responsibility and you knew about taxes when you bought it.
ReplyDeleteAnd also, sales tax is only issuable at the county and state level. It's not an option. That was stated numerous times before the vote. Apparently nobody pays attention when deciding how to vote.
It is quite obvious we must try this one more time, and I hope by August enough people will understand why we cannot have a sales tax and that an income tax would cost the individual even more.
ReplyDeleteAnd no, we can't save $30 plus million in a savings account in a few years to pay for a new school. The money isn't there to save.
And no, we can't cut administration salaries. They are making equal or lower than other districts, and with their education and the amount of work they put in, they are worth it. Besides, that wouldn't grant us enough income savings to pay for new gutters.
The truth is this:
We only have one more chance to gain the state money that we tax payers have been paying into. Why let that money go somewhere else? Yes, it's going to cost $25,000, but it's the only way we have a chance to gain $8.5 million. Isn't that a good investment?
So YES, YES, YES, bring it on in August.
I hear you, no sales tax, now it's your turn to listen. It is insulting to continue to insist on a new building when this community has such a high number of unemployed and underemployed citizens. These are workers, worked all their lives, and suddenly can no longer afford the life they had. They are not on welfare because they are too lazy to work. That's Greenville now. Stop acting like a building is the only answer to every problem. The building does NOT guarantee ANYTHING. But families struggling is REAL. We understand that whether it comes out of our pocket with the state money or the levy, it is still our money and we have no more to give. The world of academia is often oblivious to real people because the administrators are overpaid in Ohio. But I expect better from the rest of us.
ReplyDeleteI am very disappointed at the reasons for voting no. Sales tax is NOT an option as stated above and would not be feasible anyway because people would just go out of town to shop. Plus we would be asking the entire county to foot the bill for our school since a sales tax is for an entire county. For the person who said we voted "no" four times, the first two times they referred to was not for a K-12 as they indicated. It was for a K-5 building with no state funding (100% paid by Greenville residents). I pray there is some middle ground to be found between the school board/administration and the "no" voters. Please educate yourselves before voting on anything. Do not just listen to propaganda!
ReplyDeleteTo 6:51
ReplyDeleteI am listening. You say there is a high number of unemployed and underemployed. If these folks are home owners, they know that sometimes money must be spent to maintain their home. A roof may begin leading, or a furnace will need replacing. Well, this community is our home. These old buildings need replaced. Something has to be done. Independent studies have shown that it will make more financial sense to replace rather than repair. This community has no choice. Something must be done. And we can do it. We are talking pennies a day, spread out across the citizenry of this community, to provide a decent (not extravagant) school for all 5 - 8 grade children. With all due respect, no one on this thread claims this building is the only answer. It does, however, provide a decent work environment for our kids. Decent school buildings do help in educating our kids. It is one part of the picture in educating our kids. Is this too much for our community to handle? I don't think so.
Annonymous 9:44 PM
ReplyDeleteThe request for funding K-5 was made ONLY one time. The voters were being asked to pay approximately 66% as the state was to fund 34%.
If you don't believe this information, please call Mrs. Surber, the school treasurer to verify.
You can validate ballot request by reviewing the board of election records.
I agree you must educate yourself to be a responsible voter.
It is hard to vote for a levy when you know that it will be followed by ANOTHER levy in the very near future, whether for another school building or just because the school system didn't properly budget to care for and pay those working in the new school. It is the same issue over and over again all over the state! Some district builds a new school because they could get help from the state and, low and behold, they can't afford to operate the thing! How do we know Greenville won't be in the same boat? The problem is that they probably would be because they have shown repeatedly they make terrible decisions!
ReplyDeleteFamilies are being forced to make difficult decisions all over the country. Greenville is no exception. The difference between "need" and "want" determines actions. Needing a roof vs wanting a new school building is where we are. In fact, if the buildings have been allowing to deteriorate, we must find a feasible solution. And that would be one of the many empty buildings will suffice until better times. Children will be better prepared for the future if they see an example of responsible use of resources instead of throwing money around when it isn't prudent.
ReplyDeleteNo, it shouldn't. The people have spoken and they have said no. I understand the buildings are old but in this economy, with so many people being laid off or having their hours and pay cut we just can't afford it. I myself have lost my job and we are now a one income family struggling to pay our mortgage every month, for those who still have their jobs it may not sound like much to pay but for the rest of us it does. Ask again in a few years when, hopefully, the economy is a little better. Until then my children can learn just as well in these buildings as they could in a new building. It's not that we don't care or that we don't listen, it's that we can't afford it!
ReplyDeleteI have herd this debate since the board bought the land be hind the peoples back.People are pulling there kids out of greenville schools and sending them to arcanum or franklin monroe.If im not mistaken when I was in school in the early 80,s greenville schools were the best around.I think that the board needs to go back to drawing board and try something differant Because this is the second time the people have said no and not just no bye a few votes but a pretty sound defeat.On both ocasions.Can they not redesign this school and cut some corners use non union carpenters and labor and see if they cant get the cost of this school down.I mean come on 33 million is a lot of money for just 4 grades.Well just thought I would put my 2 cents in.I dont get on this site much any more because of all the crying and wineing.If every bo0dy would put forth half the energy they put in to wineing We might be able to come up with a solution that will work for every body
ReplyDelete@11:41, we have no empty buildings. Please be informed on the issues:)
ReplyDelete@1143, it's not that the buildings are old. Many old buildings are in great shape. But with many budget cuts and the voters giving the schools no new funding it's hard to keep up. Our old buildings are in awful shape. Watch the video on South School. It may disgust you. As far as a few years, I've said before and I'll say again it does not matter when you ask the voters, no matter the economic situation or the job market nobody wants to give out more money than they have to. Never will anyone "want" to vote for higher taxes. I agree, it's rough. Between my fiancee and I we each work two jobs to make ends meet and we have no kids. Good jobs are hard to come by and taxes are no help but I fully believe this is the right thing to do. I have no kids and I won't for years to come, but I vote yes for everyone elses kids. I encourage everyone to watch the South School video.
Correction - request previous was for a Pre-K to 5 made on November 4, 2003. Below off the board of elections website.
ReplyDeleteISSUE NO. 14- GREENVILLE CSD- BOND ISSUE- CONSTRUCTION
OF PRE-K THRU GRADE 5- 3.95 MILLS- 28 YRS.- $27,500,000
FOR THE BOND ISSUE 2,967 41.68
AGAINST THE BOND ISSUE 4,151 58.32
The amount slightly higher by $3 million as there are 3 more grades (PK-5 vs. 5-8) and student population much higher.
The millage higher as bond for 28 years as compared to 37 years.
Why not charge each family a fee per child who attends a Greenville school? Why not charge a fee for sports or being member of a club? I just heard on the news about a month ago that is exactly what another school did because they could not pass a levy.
ReplyDeleteThe first thing that angered a lot of people was the lack of transparency when the land for the proposed new school was purchased. Second I don't think the BOE has demonstrated any desire to bring payroll costs in line with the current economic climate. Correct me if I'm wrong but salary increases have come every year for our teachers and health care costs are paid entirley by the BOE, this is not reality with todays economic downturn. Many people feel if concessions were made they might have a more favorable attitude towards considering a new tax. As some of the others have pointed out I don't feel property owners should be responsible everytime a need for the school comes up. And don't mention Wal-Mart paying their fare share with a property tax, we all remember how they put the screws to the city of Greenville. The school system must change the way they are doing business before asking for more money in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteSome of you will always vote no. We'll just have to find more who see the need. And yes, this is real need, not a want --for better learning,and for helping to attract more business and industry. It's ironic that these schools will probably benefit those who are most against it.
ReplyDeleteThe state has learned its lesson: this issue includes a levy for maintenance.
And yes, you are right: There will be more bond issues and more levies. The high school, East and Woodland Heights need something done too. But in the case of these schools, we're not eligible for aid, so we can wait on them. Would you rather do it all at once?! Of course not. Right now, we are eligible for state assistance for this middle school, so we have to do this now. The others will wait. We're waiting on the others precisely because of the economy.
Finally, our taxes are some of the lowest in the state. We are not being over taxed. There are school districts that just passed millage of 3 and 4 times the amount of our millage. If we want to have a decent community we have to spend a little money. That's just life.
This is a NEED. Go ahead and continue to vote no. We will just find more who will say Yes.
They need to stop putting this on if they plan to do this in august it will be a special election and will cost a bunch of money to do this the school board needs to stop spending money faster than they get it. fix what they have stop the elections the magic bricks is not going to happen.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing -- I wish people would get over the fact that the board was thinking far enough ahead to purchase that property. South and the Junior High are on lots too small for safe transport of students. We NEED our schools on more acreage. The state requires a minimum of acreage for new construction. Thank God the board purchased this property when it became available. If they waited until the people voted for it, we would never get the property. We would be crying no about that too. They did what needed to be done, and what we elected them to do. They saw the need and the opportunity, and went for it. Good for them. Now we have the property at hand.
ReplyDeleteHere's some thoughts...IF you lived in Miamisburg, your yearly taxes on a $100,000 home just went up $800 a year because you just passed a school levy.
ReplyDeleteI think that it took Versailles 3 tries to get their new building...mostly because the folks in North Star didn't want to let go of a little tiny school just for them.
People are leaving Greenville Schools in droves because try as they might, only so much maintance can be done on a 90 year building that gets used and abused everyday...and there are newer modern school facilities within 10 miles.
Last thought.....EVERY school in the state of Ohio has these kinds of problems because of the way Ohio mandates it's public school funding. No it isn't fair, and all schools do the best they can with what they do or don't have. If you really want to do something, contact the state legislature and start barking at them.
I love it when Republicans vote for new taxes in!! Smaller government, mortagaging our grandchildern's future, tax and spend. It slays me on the hippocrits in this county who attend organized events in D.C. protesting the very thing that you are trying to push in Darke County.
ReplyDeleteNo way that I will be convinced that a new building will equate to better learing....tired of hearing of that as a reason to pass the levy. Better learning starts at home...a new building isn't going to change that.
ReplyDelete8:21 -- Agreed. Better learning starts at home. But a decent building helps. Try to teach a room full of 5th graders when the temperature inside is 85 degrees. That's a reality some days in our current buildings. A more tolerable environment means a better learning environment. This is ONE reason to pass this bond issue / levy.
ReplyDeleteI just watched the videos of the interior of a couple of the schools. The health risk we are putting the students at with all the leakage over the years is not good. There HAS to be a lot of mold in those buildings. The bathrooms can not be sanitary if the plumbing is so bad like in the condition that was described that they can't fix the drains and the smell is terrible.
ReplyDeleteMy kids are grown and not in school. I don't have any grandchildren in school either. I pay property taxes in Greenville so this will affect me...........but I have been voting yes and will continue to vote yes every time this is on the ballot.
Its the least we can do for the kids.
How long do you "NO" voters think it will be before South School is condemned? And what do you think will happen then?
ReplyDeleteWhat part of 'NO' confuses the School Board? The people have spoken. They are just like little kids who ask for something once and are told no, then they keep coming back and back and back. It's irritating. Tighten your belt like anyone else does when they need money.
ReplyDeleteSince we seem to like our 100 year old schools, I have an idea for saving a lot more money. We did not have snow removal or police cars one hundred years ago. We should look at the city and county records from that time and then stop funding everything we have today that we did not have then. We could save millions.
ReplyDeleteOpponents of the levy, look around and what do you see? Any kid graduating from Greenville with brains and ambition hits the road and never looks back. Thanks to you, the city is turning a dumping ground for the left-behind and the losers. Who's happy about new taxes, especially when we have to vote for thenm, but schools are an investment in the future. Either we invest, or we're just going to become another dying town, where people used to live.
ReplyDelete@1134, where do you expect the school to tighten the funds necessary to build a new middle school? It's not every day the state offers funds for this. And keep in mind the repair cost is about 103% of the cost of new. If your old crappy TV can be fixed up for $100 and you can buy a brand new flat screen TV for $103, what would you buy?
ReplyDeleteclose, jeremy, but you mean what if it cost 103 to fix versus 100 to buy new.
ReplyDeleteYou're very right. It's cheaper to get a brand new one versus paying more to get your old one fixed for a lesser quality than the new one would give.
ReplyDeleteI don't live in Greenville anymore, but I grew up there, I have family who still live there (and pay property taxes) and it's unsurprising to see this levy fail and fail again. The people of Greenville have a long, illustrious career of voting against education. This is why it's tiresome and irrelevant to continuously hear that "the people have spoken." The people in question are apparently proud supporters of ignorance, apathy, and shallow self-interest. The levy should be put back on the ballot, but, as self-defeating as it sounds, its supporters need to realize that it won't pass in a community whose citizens choose to remain short-sighted and willfully ignorant.
ReplyDeleteEducation takes place in many stuctures. We in the US tend to want to demolish our history. Our private schools in the area are in less than ideal buildings--but good education happens there. To see how home-schooled children often outshine public school students, just Google home schooling.
ReplyDeleteRob: You nailed it. I don't say this as a threat but as a warning. The people of this town don't realize the impact their votes on the school are having. Good people are leaving this town. I just heard about another one today. And, they will not be here to help you pay for the new school when the State comes in and mandates a new school be built. Not that it will make a difference but don't say you weren't warned.
ReplyDeleteRob, please move back to Greenville. You can help educate the "short-sighted and willfully ignorant".
ReplyDeleteI studied the issue. It is not well thought out. It is wrong configuration. It is financed in a way that adds many millions to cost of the project for local tax payer.
And if you study the facts the only thing lost by passing at this time is maybe 2% of state assistance AND $1/2 million for 50% of GJHS facade repairs.
I voted no.
I think the board needs to NOT put the levy back on the ballot in August. They need to take a time out to listen to the community as to what they want for their schools.
I've sent letters to board members. I encourage others to contact them.
Lower Crust,
ReplyDeleteEnlighten us, please.
How is it the wrong configuration?
How do you figure 2% of state assistance plus the reimbursement for repairs?
Also, share with us what you want for our schools.
Many of us have studied the issue as well, and your conclusions are different. So, share with us on this forum.
Thank you. I look forward to reading what you have to say.
No new property taxes, no new sales taxes---but what about Income taxes? For schools? Wait a minute we already pay that----where does that money go? If you tally the cost of the Bliss challenge in court a few years ago ($38,000) and the cost of putting these levies and bond issues on the bal time after time---why, we could have repaired the Junior High Building!
ReplyDeleteAnd, there are very very few schools left in Ohio that only have a 1/2 percent income tax. Most others are 1 to 1 3/4 percent. We should pay more. After all, the city takes 1 percent...
ReplyDeleteWatch the south school video. It's appalling and my kids have graduated. We need improvements.
Maybe they should forgo the middle school and just do it all, K-12.
Options for configuration:
ReplyDeleteK-6, new. 7-12 in Park (current high school), renovate / upgrade this facility to accomodate.
Or explore doing something either at Woodland Heights site or be creative with East School / LoBill location.
Have you called the treasure to ask what funding available from what use to be the Ohio Schools Facilities Commission? This reimbursement was around 35% 10 years ago and possibly could be up to 40%. I split the difference for the 38%
Call Mrs. Surber @ 548-3185. Get your finance questions answered.
Funding available after August but will look different.
The Build American Bonds available revised project.
Published reports on repair of facade was $900,000 to 1,100,000. Campaign commitee, that was public in January, indicated getting reimbursed for 1/2 or $500,000.
Ask your favorite board member what their plan is for the current high school when there are 800 students occupying it. There were 1,400 in the building when I attended. The was no CT building or "new" gym.
I will vote yes for a solution that fits our needs long term.
Let's do it the dems way.....just print more money!!!
ReplyDeleteMaybe those that think the rest of us are "short-sighted and willfully ignorant" should just get together and take the money out of their own pockets! I, like several of the other people that have commented, have lost my job recently. My family can't afford any more taxes, heck we can barely afford to pay our bills! For all of those that keep saying we would vote no anyway, maybe if we could trust the BOE to do what it's supposed to with the money, they would have a few more votes! No more buying land behind our backs and quit with the raises!
ReplyDelete@11 5/7, I like your idea. Us yes voters will pay for a new school, our kids will learn and excel, and your kids can go to the current conditions schools and struggle.
ReplyDeleteWhat's that? You want to use the new school too? Pay for it.
@620 5/7, repairs are more costly than a new building. Election costs are $25k to $30k for special elections only. That's such an insignificant amount to compare it's not even funny. Do educate yourself.
I live in an area where there are no income taxes to support the schools. They all seem to be holding up one way another. And don't ask how, I don't research it.
ReplyDeleteLower Crust, you have your best ideas, and I can see value in them. Others have their best ideas. Yes, there is more than one way to configure this. However, I also see value in the current plan. We could argue over the various options until the Rapture and then it won't matter. But, we won't get anywhere. Bottom line, this community has known that our buildings are inadequate for a very long time, and right now a good plan is in place. I will check with the treasurer on the financial piece, but in the mean time, I suggest we get on board with a plan, and this is a good one.
ReplyDeletedon't post last comment
ReplyDeleteNO NEW SCHOOL renovate the high school for 7 thru 12 (it was designed in 1964 to have another floor added) renovate and add on to Woodland for K thru 6. Greenville Board needs to use common sense and honesty. Repairs are always cheaper than tear down and rebuild. Think about it do you as a property owner build a new property if it needs a new roof and painted? The board needs then to develope a excellent maintaince program, which may require hiring someone with experience to design a custom program.
ReplyDeleteEveryone has their own idea about the best way to configure a school and pay for it. However, we can only choose one plan. The proposed plan is reasonable, if not perfect. The larger point is that this levy should pass by a large percentage because the people of this town need to take drastic steps to prevent the town from dying. People keep saying that the voters have spoken and the BOE needs to listen. I think they misread how their vote is being interpreted. What I hear them saying is young families are not welcome in Greenville. If you are 25-40 years old, you need to look somewhere else. This town is for aging baby boomers who, by the way, aren't willing to sacrifice for their children's generation the way their parents sacrificed for them. Really. It's time to stop battling this. If you want to raise a family, Greenville is not the place for you. The voters have spoken.
ReplyDeleteWhat a negative comment and so missinterpreted, people make a community a great place to live our schools only need repaired. To all people young and old Greenville is a wonderful, safe place to raise children and enjoy retired life. I hope the last writer can find a more positive attitude and see Greenville as it is a great to live.
ReplyDeleteWhat a negative comment, Greenville is a wonderful place to raise children and also enjoy retirement years. Our schools only need some repairs and are not discourageing people or industry from moving to Greenville. I hope the last writer came develope and find a positive out look for Greenville and it's people.
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:56AM, what is your age? I'm guessing you are retirement age. Ask someone 25-40 about open enrollment and how it is impacting Greenville schools. You act as though my comments at 8:46AM are negative because I have a negative attitude. The fact that parents are pulling their kids out of Greenville School Distict is not in my head. It is a fact. I am trying to warn people about the consequences of their vote. I wish it were not true but it is. Greenville is not the place to raise a family that it once was. You are kidding yourself if you think "some repairs" to our 100 year old buildings will change things. You can support this levy or watch Greenville die. Don't say you weren't warned.
ReplyDeleteYes, Greenville is a town full of "boomers," which keeps out potential young college graduates. Some young people DO want to come back, but so many older workers almost seem to be keeping it from happening because there is just no where for the younger generation to get a job, and "opening up shop" on their own just has not worked unless they have someone else financing it, in many cases.
ReplyDeleteThat comment isn't directed at the levy, but just backing up someone's earlier statement.
Lower Crust, the bill for the facade was "guesstimated" one time to be up to $1,000,000. In fact, the actual repair cost was closer to $500,000.
ReplyDeleteBottom line, I think if you read these posts in their entirety the only conclusion would be to go for passage in August.
Our deteriorating schools are a detriment to new industry and business. Management in many existing businesses are choosing to live elsewhere.
Children's retention and openness to learning are enhanced by attractive, comfortable facilities.
Because of our schools, families are choosing open enrollment while remaining in Greenville. This way, they pay our abnormally low tax rates while taking advantage of better facilities in districts with higher tax rates. Seems unfair, but it's the law.
The schools are too outdated and on lots too small to justify repair. Building new will in fact cost less.
Property tax to finance the middle school will cost the average homeowner less than an income tax. And Sales tax is not possible.
Close to 10 years ago school board was thinking for the future when they purchased the property on Ohio. They should have purchased adjoining property, but a public outcry kept them from it. I'm glad we have that prime real estate now for some of our grades.
There is never a better time to do this. The last time a new school was proposed it was during a much better economic climate, and it still failed. Times will always be tough for some. At the same time, construction costs are lower right now.
There is more than one possible configuration, as pointed out by Lower Crust. However, at some point we have to get behind one of these plans. This is a good plan.
Yes, more levies and bond issues will come to us down the pike, because the HS, East and Woodland Heights will need something done to them. However, the state is offering assistance only for the replacement of the JH and South, so we can afford to wait on them. O
We have a pleasant town to live in, with many beautiful amenities. However, our schools are the centerpiece of our town, and right now they are a detriment to our children and to our community at large. In my opinion, we have reached a critical juncture, and there is no more pressing need than this one.
I implore the school board to come behind this in a big way and get this passed.
Old people sure are a problem, what is so surprising that so many of them are so sucessful.Maybe the younger people could learn something from their examples if they would only listen and not think they know it all.
ReplyDelete@806 5/8, as has been stated numerous times in the past, repairs are 103% of the cost of a new building. It is not always cheaper to repair.
ReplyDeleteYou have been warned, don't listen, believe the negatives about our schools, our community and repairing the schools being more costly than new construction. Vote in a debt load we will all struggle to pay off. Just wait till a new school is built and they want another levy to built another school and a levy for additional operating expences for the schools we have. Will people and industry want to move then? Think long and hard when you vote.
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:59AM, how many old successful people are in Greenville? I don't see many. In fact, I can only conclude that, if they can't afford $118/yr to build a new school, they are NOT successful. A successful person would realize he or she loses that much in the couch every year. And, by the way, the old SUCCESSFUL people are not the ones voting against the levy.
ReplyDeleteWhile we're it at, I wonder if it occurs to these old people you're talking about that only those 70 and older were adults when the last school was built in Greenville. Therefore, the kids and some grandkids of these older people were educated in buildings their ancestors paid for. How fortunate for them their ancestors looked on them more charitably than they look on the next generation. For that matter, I wonder if these older people realize that they have not paid into social security at a rate to sustain their large numbers. But, instead, chose to do just enough to meet the needs of the smaller generation that came before them. I also wonder if they considered that they should have planned ahead for the burden they are placing and will place on medicaid and medicare. Truly impressive record for the group that benefited most from the roaring 80s and 90s. I hope for their sake that the next generation doesn't get the chance to vote on whether to extend medicare/medicaid/soc. sec. to the aging baby boomer generation. That younger group may decide to return the favor--sorry, just can't afford it.
Anon 1:15 Great statements, keep it up, those kind of remarks will insure the levy will be defeated.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how recently the people who speak of repairs have been in South School? Historical restoration of a century old building wouldn't even begin to meet the needs of current and future education. Critics should go spend some time in several classrooms WHEN THE STUDENTS ARE THERE, not just during an "open house." I spent two periods there last week, and the building was worse than I remembered compared to where my grand children go to school. The students were fine. You still can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
ReplyDelete1:39PM, you don't get it. I'm not trying to convince anyone. We're way beyond that now. It's clear nothing is going to change the fact that this town will not support a levy. Guess what. The consequences are coming and it ain't gonna be pretty. Just remember you people asked for it.
ReplyDeleteFor those who question if people really WILL leave the district, I am your answer.
ReplyDeleteWe WILL either take advantage of open enrollment in another district no later than school year 2011-2012 (with the goal of being NEXT school year unless something changes) or WORSE..will move out of the city all together.
Why should you care? I'll tell you.
Not only are we parents with high expectations of our children's education, but we also are parents who have high expectations of our children's conduct. This translates into our kids NEVER disrespecting you or your property. We raise our children to respect you, be obedient and honor you as their elders. Our children will help you if you needed it..or would even give you the forgotten courtesy of offering you, their elder, their seat in the crowded waiting room. We believe that we are not raising children, we are raising future adults so expect them to start practicing citizenship and cooperation NOW. Furthermore, as a family, we are supporters of your community teams, your parks, your charities, both in time and donations. If we MOVE...the person who moves into our home might not have the same standards.
In terms of transferring to another district, while staying in this town, here is why it should matter to you. My school age son is not only well behaved, fairly "easy" on his teachers and serves as a good role model for other students, he also scores "Advanced" on all standardized tests. That means he counts for MORE than one student, thanks to the STate's "value added measure" which gives additional points to districts for students who score in this bracket. What that means to you is that a student like my son in the schools in your community can help to counter balance poor test scores of underperforming students. Raised test scores translate into better school district ratings. Better school district ratings translate into higher property values for YOU and more appeal for prospective businesses which would richen our economy. When you lose a student like my son, and make no changes to the current school conditions/systems, and the community continues to send the message to folks like us that they are not as comitted to education as we are, don't expect that he will be replaced. The unfortunate reality is that new families with similar expectations and/or high performing students will do exactly what we will do. Your only hope is to nurture the children in the "average" and "above average" bracket, allow them to potentially reach the above-average and advanced level. However, that kind of change is unlikely if the community continues to accept and excuse BELOW AVERAGE facilities. Do I claim that a building will automatically produce higher test scores..not NECESSARILY. However, I will gladly and boldly state that when a community is comitted to it's children's education it SHOWS in both buildings AND test scores. Meaning, it is no accident that the highest performing districts have parents involved in their children's educations, teachers who feel supported by the community and students who are comfortable in their surroundings. The same way that you will be hard pressed to find communities with adequate facilities whose parents/teachers/students don't also share the same traits above. More to come...
Cont'd from above
ReplyDelete******
Now, to quell the assumptions you may have developed from this post, here are the hard core facts of OUR family. My husband is self employed. By state standards we barely are above poverty level and could qualify (if we so chose) for DOZENS of state/community supplement programs. I am a stay at home mother, my hubby and I wear clothes from thrift stores, I am an avid couponer AND we have no insurance, with each person in our family having a significant medical history. The point of this is that if WE can see where we can save $3 a week, I find it terribly difficult to understand how others can not. Worse, I find it terribly difficult to understand why WE are the minority of our socio-economic class..in our beliefs and priorities.
So yes, we WILL move and/or move our son out of this district. This is REAL, this is not imagined as a poster above indicated. That being said, if we did transfer our son out of the district, I will NOT stop advocating for this cause. You see, even if I don't have a child in the district..I am still a resident here, I still care about our kids and community.
So, in that case, I will be GLAD to help pay for this even if my son is not enrolled. Someone like me paid part of my way, someone like me (potentially without kids in the district) saw their cooperation with school levies and bond issues and an investment in their future. I owe their kids and grand kids the same courtesy, and more..the same opportunites they afforded me.
First of all, the school levy had my vote. Then the school started calling my cell phone daily before the levy. That ended my vote. Like I needed to be reminded.
ReplyDeleteTo LGB: By far the best written letter in support of a school levy. It is clear from its content that you were well educated and that you desire the same opportunity for your son. And, it was so refreshing to actually read words that made sense and did not abuse the English language.
ReplyDelete8:17... Really? You were hurt? Annoyed? Upset? Because of some cell phone calls you decided not to vote for this? Say it isn't so.
ReplyDeleteAlex B, you mean the rest of didn't make sense and abused the English language? True, LGB did a great job, but don't put down the others in your compliment to LGB.
ReplyDeleteI am sure there are plenty of "old, successful" people in Greenville, but I have seen more than my fair share of young persons pushed out of town by these types who were TRYING to learn from them, but they just were not giving them a chance. All too often, the older folks did not want to learn from the new generation how things were done and cast aside the youngers because they did things "differently."
ReplyDeleteI have read everything to this point and want to give my 2 cents on some issues I have read.
ReplyDeleteMany different ways to fix the problems are true. Anyone who argues that our facilities don't need replaced is beyond these discussions. The BOE needs to listen to the public if they want to pass the levy. The public is the ones who are going to make the decision. They need to find out why people are voting no. Some of it is due to the economy and that is understandable. I don't feel anyone should be judging someone on the decision to vote no due to their economic situation. That is no ones place to do in this great country. However some of the no vctes are for other reasons. Why are these people voting no for other reasons? If you throw a choice out there that the majority of voters did not have any part in deciding, then this is what happens..failure. Let the public, or from what I understand even people who work for the school, have some say in how this all shakes out. The planning, the configuration, etc. Are there others plans for the other buildings? I have seen no such detailed plan. My advice is to collect data and make an educated decision on what the people want, and communicate the whole plan.
Secondly, I am positive that the teachers of this District are going to do the best job they can at educating their students to the best of their ability. If the resources they currently have is all they have, they will make it work. If it is a new school, that would be a benefit, and would make education easier. But don't slam our teachers. They are hard-working individuals, who will get the job done regardless. So to say that if we don't have a new building, that will result in a poor education is ridiculous. A new building will not make any teacher, a smarter teacher. So those who cry open-enrollment, you have no clue. Ever heard of Pride? Yes we could say that Pride would equal a new school. But if it doesn't happen, then what you are saying is "I will take my ball and go home". "I will not stay and fight to see this thing through". Quitters attitude. From what I have been told, take a look this year, as every year at the graduation. How many scholarships are our kids awarded for academics? I think our kids rake in quite a bit of money and are prepared for college. I don't think our State scores are in the sewer either.
Finally, I know some teachers. Before everyone starts slamming them for what they make, that is whole new topic. They took a pay freeze last year. Insurance rates are not paid in full. Get some facts before you start throwing around opinions as fact.
JD: You can call it being a quitter. I call it being a realist and would suggest that you may be somewhat idealistic/naive about the situation. Listening to the public is not the problem. 8 years ago the district formed a committee of 40 or so private citizens to get input from all corners about how to configure new school buildings. That group met for months and held numerous public forums. Very few attended.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is there simply is no consensus in this town because people do not support schools. They will say they do and if only one or two things were changed, they would be a yes. They're full of it. They will find any and every excuse to avoid getting on board with a plan to build a school-no matter what the plan is.
It is time to stop wasting time on the people of the school district. They will not realize the harm they are doing to themselves until it is too late. Frankly, they don't deserve another chance to do the right thing. Sadly, it is time for young families to leave Greenville--it is already happening.
There are a lot of drama queens in this forum.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, Fact Bear. Everything is just fine. Stay the course.
ReplyDeleteEveryone has their opinion on this topic and clearly people are dug in and unwilling to see any side but their own. Right or wrong we can forget about the 8.8 million we would have gotten from old Uncle Sam (i.e. "us")to help with the new facility. The majority of Greenville is happy with the status quo so let's not waste any more money on another special election in August. Eventually when the buildings have deteriorated beyond safe conditions we will foot the entire bill ourselves to build anew. (repairs on both South and the Jr High are already in excess of 100% of a new facilty)
ReplyDeleteThat said I just want to throw this question out to all those struggling so hard in these times: why can't Sonic find enough employees to open? Why aren't there lines of people there day after day fighting for those jobs?
Are the jobs Sonic offer (and other similiar jobs) beneath these people? One thing I have learned as time goes by: those that want to work, find a way to work. Those that do not find an excuse.
I think Greenville has deeper seeded issues than no lines at Sonic. It is a problem with too many people coming into Greenville with no desire to work in the first place and just wanting the government handouts. Stop the section 8 and HUD and get rid of a lot of the riff-raff that is dragging the community down. Plus, why take a job at Sonic when the government pays you more to NOT work?
ReplyDeleteOk, if you have a medical degree or engineering degree or law degree and don't want to take a job at Sonic, that is one thing. Those degrees probably would do more harm to a person's future than good would be done in the short term. But if your highest level of education is high school and you need a job, start sprinting to Wagner Ave! But, yeah, once again, if you haven't already made the trip to apply for a job, you probably fall into the category of being content with taking government handouts and are waiting for the next "welfare check day" at Wal-Mart.
Working a job, no matter what it is, will never hurt your future employment. All an employer wants is dedication and gumption. If you prove that you do what you "gotta" do, it says a lot.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone cares ~ I voted no because I do not trust our BOE.
ReplyDeleteIf they get this passed we all know the next arguement will be "how can we prepare our youth for college when they go from a state of the art building into the High School before they are shipped off to their 'higher' education?"
Lower Crust has some great thinking points about changing the focus from what the State is "offering" currently and what may be around the corner as an opprotunity for us!
I do agree that something has to change...the buildings as they stand are unacceptable however we can't vote yes because this is our only option...we need to vote yes for a plan we can all belive in and believe it to be the best direction for our community (not the only choice we have)!
For those who are somehow in doubt about how our schools measure up, here are the cold hard facts.
ReplyDeleteBased on ONLY the school districts in our county, ALL OF WHICH OFFER OPEN ENROLLMENT, we pale miserably.
The 7 school districts in our county are Greenville, Versailles, Franklin-Monroe, Ansonia, Arcanum, Missinewa and Tri-Village. Here is how we measure up in ranking 1st-7th, 1st being the best performing district of the group on statewide tests, 7th being the worst performing district of the group on state wide tests:
3RD GRADE:
Reading: 7th
Math: 6th
4TH GRADE:
Reading: 4th
Math: 6th
Writing: 5th
5TH GRADE:
Reading: 6th
Math: 6th
Science:5th
Social Studies: 7th
6th GRADE:
Reading: 5th
Math:4th
7TH GRADE:
Reading: 7th
Math: 7th
Writing: 7th
8TH GRADE:
Reading: 6th
Math: 6th
Science: 5th
Social Studies: 5th
10th GRADE OHIO GRADUATION TESTS (an assesment of how "prepared" you are towards graduation:
Reading: 7th
Math: 6th
Writing: 7th
Science: 6th
Social Studies: 7th
11TH GRADE OHIO GRAD TESTS (An average of those taking Grad tests in grade 10 & 11):
Reading: 7th
Math: 7th
Writing: 6th
Science: 6th
Social Studies: 7th
And perhaps the worst news yet:
Graduation Rate: 7th, with only 82.4 of our students graduating, the next LOWEST is Arcanum, with 94.1% graduation rate!
Further more, our district ranks 7th in the county for attendance rate. That means in the ONE WEEK that the school district is monitored and evaluated for state "results" (before which the schools/teachers etc. TELL the parents to have their kids in school for that purpose, so in some ways one could argue the numbers are actually artificially inflated), more of our children were absent than any other school in the county.
The moral of this data is that we are failing miserably accross the board in this district in comparison to the other schools in this county. That being said, those of us who were "sticking it out", hoping for a renewed comittment of the community to the most basic of things...safe buildings, much less higher standards for our district's performance, are discouraged.
Not one of these better performing districts is more than 20 mins away. EVERY ONE OF THEM offers open enrollment, meaning I can send my child there at no cost, I would only have to provide transportation.
Why wouldn't I?
Gigi: You are part of the problem, not part of the solution. This is the real world. All 15,000 of us in the school district do not get to choose a plan which meets our individual standards. The schools are falling apart. The BOE has put forth a reasonable plan to deal with it. It is not a perfect plan. However, it's time to grow up, be thankful others are doing the difficult work of putting the plan together and support it.
ReplyDeleteI know it's all the rage to cite test scores like they actually mean something, but the results of high-stakes standardized tests are so flawed as to be virtually meaningless. Greenville's attendance and graduation rates are troubling, to be sure, but using test scores to judge the quality of a district is a bad idea. Standardized tests (especially the ones used at the state level) are shallow and reductive measures of test-taking abilities, and not, by and large, of subject-matter skill or intelligence.
ReplyDeleteSo, rather than use test scores as a way of determining whether or not to support the building of a new school, I would encourage you instead to seek out the research which discusses how modern, comfortable, high-tech facilities positively affects both teacher and student performance.
Rob,I am anti-test, however our argument against them is not pertinent here. There is a lesson to be learned from this data, no matter WHO you blame the scores on (Or credit high scores TO), the district, the methods, the school building, the teachers, the students, the parents OR THE VERY NATURE OF THE TEST ITSELF. Bottom line is that we are at the bottom in our county and no amount of arguing the merit of the tests changes the fact that these scores translate into decreased home values, less new economic growth, and loss of students to other districts.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that while (AGAIN) I dislike the testing process, I think our graduation rate (non-disputable..no "test" to blame there) reflects that perhaps there is at least some merit in these numbers. We are among the lowest from 3rd-11th grade and have the lowest grad rate by a mile...therefore whether we like it or not, this data indicates that the end result supports the preliminary findings.
I will GLADLY supply research/studies/papers and findings that support the idea that adequate surroundings are beneficial to student moral and performance and have done so to advocate groups already. However, I am wondering if you are truly interested in those (anyone can find this data) or if that was just an attempt to divert the focus away from the ugly numbers.
The point of my post was to clarify 2 things:
1) The total misconception, and quite frankly gross misrepresentation by some that "our district performance is fine. It's not THAT bad, so we don't need to change anything."
2) The idea of losing students/families/teachers to county districts is REAL. It is not imagined, it is not "dramatic", it is imminent.
Therefore, the time IS now. Any "team's" performance is directly dependent on all participant's COOPERATION. As a community, we play a part on this team, with the goal being providing the best education possible for our children. Constantly blaming "the board" is as unfair as always blaming a pitcher, a goalie or a quarterback for a loss. We all have to do our part.
Furthermore, in terms of attendance rates, is it POSSIBLE that PERHAPS our students are not in school b/c they are ill MORE than other districts? Or, to "soothe" the sketptics, do our children PERHAPS "avoid" school more than other districts in the county? Gee, why might that be? What do other districts have that we don't?
ReplyDeleteUpdated facilities.
LGB, I am for the new school. However, I want to point something out about those rankings, including the graduation rates, that cannot be helped by a new school: the home life of many of the kids in our district effects a student's achievement more than any other factor. The socio-economic status of a higher percentage of our kids is lower than kids in the surrounding districts. They don't have parents who care or know how to help them out. They don't get encouragement at home. So, I guess I'm saying that better, more comfortable facilities will help, but they won't solve all the problems for these kids.
ReplyDeleteThe buildings have nothing to do with the quality of education our children are getting. Maybe the BOE needs to focus on education not buildings. If I had children in school I would send them to another district, not for the buildings but for the quality of education. Isn't education what counts?
ReplyDeleteLGB @ 12:59 - Seriously, you think a student that skips school NOW is going to start attending because there is a new school?
ReplyDeleteSorry, any arguments you now place on this site will have to be related back to that one, because it is just so blindly idiotic. If a student wants to skip school, they don't do it because of a crappy building. That's just absurd to even suggest.
We're arguing at cross purposes here, LGB. I grew up in Greenville, am a product of Greenville schools, feel like I received a good education in them, and, at least partially because of that education, became a teacher myself (and one that now specializes in standards and standardized testing). I've long been disgusted by Greenville's perpetual refusal to support education, and that continues to this day, even though I don't live in the area and have no vested interest in seeing the current levy pass. I believe strongly in building this school.
ReplyDeleteMy point in bringing up the irrelevancy of test scores is that they are, as you point out, a potential distraction from the real issue. I understand that people who have been led to believe that test scores actually mean something view them as a measure of school quality. They'll continue to do so as long as other people persist in presenting them as a measure of school quality. There are, I think, other, better arguments to be made in favor of building the school (such as the one you make in your post at 12:59 AM), and presenting test scores as evidence of the way the schools are failing its students and their parents is sort of unfair, when those numbers, I would argue, have little to do with the quality of Greenville's schools in comparison to other schools in the area.
Does anyone know if Greenville and/or Darke County schools have applied for the federal Race to the Top education funds? The deadline is today. Without support from our school districts (administrators),Ohio is not apt to get this $400 million dollars for our Ohio schools.
ReplyDeleteTo those who point to the low test scores and say that we should stop worrying about building a new school and focus on educating better, I wish to offer a thought or two. We have permitted subsidized housing in Greenville and drawn in welfare recipients from around the county. The children of these people, on average, test poorly. The result is their low test scores are removed from Mississinawa and added to Greenville. On the side, every other school district around the county has a new building and they have, through open enrollment, pulled the kids of parents who really care about their kids' education into the county schools. Those kids, on average, test very well. The result is Greenville's test scores go down (again) and FM's scores go up. The kids left in Greenville are a combination of those here to collect welfare and those whose parents don't care enough to go elsewhere. A new school building is the single most important thing the BOE can do to increase test scores--merely because they'll stop losing so many of the good students.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous May 12, 2010 3:58 PM
ReplyDeleteI am not suggesting that each of us "get to choose a plan which meets our individual standards." However the Board has put together ONE plan and tried to shove it down my throat...when the voters didn't like this plan did they try to reinvent or change IN ANY WAY? Instead you argue "The BOE has put forth a reasonable plan to deal with it...be thankful others are doing the difficult work of putting the plan together and support it."
I will not support a bad plan.
The argument of this is our plan - you should support it or your against education - just doesn't sit very well with me. I can support education and not approve of the current proposal...they are not exclusive.
Have the county put on a sales tax that is distributed to all the county schools according to student population. It's not that hard figure out if you just step back and look at it logically. No more real estate tax...if you want to drive out business and keep new ones from coming in, go ahead and pass it.
ReplyDeleteFYI: The repair/maintenance costs are built in to this levy. Please read and know the information. Will we need other levies in the future for more schools? Yes.
ReplyDeleteWould it be better to ask for money for K-12 instead of 5-8? That way it would be one money all at once.
Also: Homeowners, it's the American dream to own a home, and owning that home comes with expenses...taxes too.
@ 912: a sales tax distributed to all schools based on enrollment is hardly as straight forward as you'd like it to be.
ReplyDeletemainly, do you realize just how high of a sales tax you'd be talking about in order to generate enough revenue for a new school PLUS give money to other districts?
Gigi: The school district has been trying to figure this out for nearly 10 YEARS. Where have you been? This is the "only" plan now because everyone rejected the last plan 8 years ago. And, I missed the part where Gigi jumped in and grabbed the torch and led us all to promised land after THAT failed levy.
ReplyDeleteIf you had run for school board or done anything to contribute to this process, you might be worth listening to. But, like SO MANY others, you haven't. It's easy to say the current plan is bad. It's difficult to spend years figuring out how to save a dire situation and have people like you (who do NOTHING) poke holes in it. IF this town moves forward it will be despite, not because, of people like you. I'm sick of hearing from all you thumbtwittlers who bash the people who are working hard to improve things. Lead, follow or get out of the way.
I would like to know if this new school is going to be made of brick and mortar. So many schools build these new schools that have these grand entrances and beautiful brick work that is not necessary. There are other alternatives in building that can be cheaper then brick and mortar. Also south school is no better than the middle school so the schools will be asking for a new school there. If the schools want to give me the head then give me the shaft as well. I would much rather take it all at once then bit by bit. I lived in another state where k-12 was in one campus but separate from each other so there were no high schools with elementary. One location so the schools staff was smaller, the start times were offset, so school bus drivers could do multiple pick-ups. These schools were not made of brick and mortar and grand entrances but they did what they needed to and gave the kids a great education.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I too am interested if Greenville City Schools participated in Ohio's "Race To The Top", either in round 1, 2 or both? I never saw mention of it in the paper, thru the schools etc...
ReplyDeleteIf not, what was the reason?
@1:14, so, 6-7 months after we started talking about this you still don't know that south and the jr high would be consolidated?
ReplyDelete/shakes head in disbelief and disappointment
Wondering why my post from earlier hasn't shown up????
ReplyDeleteAnonymous May 13, 2010 8:28 AM, You said "On the side, every other school district around the county has a new building and they have, through open enrollment, pulled the kids of parents who really care about their kids' education into the county schools".
ReplyDeleteSorry but you are wrong. Arcanums school is not complete, they are still in their old schools. Franklin-Monroe is not even close to being in their new school. FM will not be in their new school until the 2011-2012 school year. They are in buldings that are just as or very close to the ages of Greenville's school buildings. How does FM students score so high on their tests, When they are in OLD outdated buildings????????????
John H., you know the reason. It's been stated before. In Greenville, there is a higher percentage of students from broken, unstable households. Often they are from the lower rungs of the socio-economic ladder. Students from stable, supportive home environments flourish almost anywhere, because they get support from home. that's why the Montessori kids do so well in their less-than-adequate building. Like it or not, our kids need all the help they can get. New schools do help, especially the disadvantaged. That has been proven by independent studies.
ReplyDeleteJohn H: No, you are wrong and simple and a threat to Greenville's future. Sorry but I have a new policy of zero tolerance for excuse makers like you who are ruining this town.
ReplyDeleteOpen enrollment HAS pulled kids from Greenville and not just a few. Whether the schools are complete or not, people know they are coming and they are leaving Greenville. It's an obvious point but ask someone who actually has access to the numbers.
Your comment about the scores generated at FM is, again, simple. First, FM IS building a new school. So, apparently, the people that you point to as an example of the ones who know how to produce quality students disagree with you about the relationship between new buildings and quality education.
Second, your assertion that kids can be educated in old buildings is, under the right circumstances, true but misses the point. Kids at Harvard get good educations in old buildings. There are many differences but the main difference is people want to go to Harvard. Greenville needs to compete for kids. In order for Greenville to compete for quality kids and the families and businesses that come with them, it must have up-to-date schools. We are on a downward spiral of taking in families that don't help us and losing the families that do. Even worse, things will snowball as the departure of quality families will result in lower scores and fewer quality people in the distict. As a result, even more people will give up and leave.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why you and 57% of the voters can't see that or choose to ignore it. This is not a close call. You don't have be one of those brilliant people who were educated in an old building to understand it.
I believe the levy would have passed if there were more grades added to the new building. It seems that only 4 grades is not enough. I thought when they bought the land that the jr. high and high school would be there. There is enough room for them. I am not young but I went to a brick school house grades 1 thru 8 and got a good education. That school house is still in good shape and is now used as apartments. I feel the Memorial Hall has lots of room and could be used for at least 4 grades and the offices there could cut down and used to a better advantage. I am not against a new school, I just feel that more grades be added to the new school.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous May 14, 2010 8:30 AM.
ReplyDeleteI have a zero tolerance for a dumbass like you. You call me simple and state that I am wrong. Prove I am wrong, Arcanum is still not in their new school (fact)! FM has not even started to frame their new building, they are still doing ground work (fact)! So where am I wrong? Poor quality families moving into Greenville has nothing to do with the school. A new school will not bring in new companies or jobs. That is a city thing that needs to be fix. Anyways, time will tell. If you cry babies get your new school and 10 to 20 years later Greenville will be in the same shape and the school system will still be at the bottom of the county. Just remember " I told you so". You have to fix the system and new buildings don't do that.
To LGB on May 12 comment. Do you know the stats for how Greenville ranked before all these other schools were built. Did Greenville still rank 6th and 7th then. I don't think these schools advanced pass Greenville just because they built new schools.
ReplyDeleteJohn H: I already proved you were wrong. And, it's clear (and not surprising) from your response that you don't even understand the issue or the point I was making. Frankly, I'm not going to back up to explain it to you again. PS Be careful. Cry babies like me might give you a job some day.
ReplyDeleteJohn H., Here are three links that prove you are wrong.
ReplyDeletego to this link and read it.
https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1794/3303/digest082.pdf?sequence=1
Go here as well:
http://edweb.sdsu.edu/schoolhouse/documents/wallsspeak.pdf.
Both of these links will take you to articles that point to evidence that suggests learning is influenced by the building.
Now go to this one:
http://www.awcnet.org/portal/StudioNew.asp?webid=1&mode=B1&ChannelLinkID=5065
Pay attention to this quote from the above article about a town in Washington that turned itself around:
"You can’t expand your economic base without good schools. People simply won’t move to your town if you don’t have quality schools for them...."
ONE key to quality schools is safe, decent buildings.
What more proof do you need???
Nowhere did I say their scores were higher than greenville ONLY because they built new schools. Their scores are higher because they have people both in the schools and outside of the schools (in the community and/or as parents), who are commited to excellence and PRACTICE cooperation.
ReplyDeleteThe data was provided for many reasons, but the two most pertinent to the conversation that preceded my post was to quell two major mischaracterizations and misconceptions.
1) The idea that everything is "fine", we don't need to change a thing. One poster even said, "our scores aren't THAT bad".
2) The idea that those who caution the continued neglect of the schools (including their structures) will result in decreased student enrollment (kids going to the better performng schools), lost "good" teachers, less new residency, and decreased new industry (translation: JOBS), are being "dramatic", are imagining this consequence and/or are exaggerating the possibility.
In simple terms: People who vote "yes" to reasonable school issues (ya know, like sending kids to schools that aren't falling down and aren't unsafe)tend to also be people who are actively involved in THE PARTNERSHIP that is their child's education. This requires cooperation of ALL, no ONE entity..a parent..a student..a district..a teacher can do it alone.
To Anonymous May 14, 2010 9:56 PM.
ReplyDeleteI have a very good secured job, so I would never need anything from you (job). Plus I would never want to work for someone who can't admit they are wrong. You are really trying to tell me that Arcanum and FM are in their new buildings. My first comment was that someone stated on this tread that all county schools are in new buildings. That is not true, Arcanum and FM are not in their new buildings. That was my point. No one understands your point, because it make no sense. Go ahead and hate me all you want. Just know this, my children are in a good school system and yes like I stated before I have a very good job. So I don't need anything from you. Yes,You can think I'm full of it, but I am already thinking you are. You probably have a crappy job and not in a job position to hire anyone. Have a great night!
John, for the love of God, Anonymous NEVER said the students were physically in their new buildings.
ReplyDeleteWhat he said was that the very people you are crediting with giving/getting a good education in OLD buildings are the very people who saw the merit in buliding NEW buildings.
Using your logic, that a good education can be obtained in old buildings, then those people NEVER would have voted in a NEW building, after all they were getting a "good enough" education for their kids in the old ones.
Thus, the point Anonymous was making (of which despite your belief, I totally understand this and ALL of his/her points) is that if THEY can see merit in newer buildings when already achieving "superior numbers" in OLD ONES, then we should DEFINITELY see merit in it, considering our "numbers" are NOT even close to what theirs are....
John H: OK, I take it back. I don't know why I insisted on stating that the schools at FM and Arcanum are complete. I guess I just got carried away because there's no question that's exactly what I said and clearly YOU understand that. Now that you've shown me the error of my ways, I am opposed to a new school and all the evils that accompany it.
ReplyDeleteThank goodness for you and your ability to sift through the shades of gray and just lay it out there once and for all--the schools at FM and Arcanum are not complete. That's right. I said it. They are NOT complete. Guys like me just need to stop pretending that they are complete and finally man up. Thank you John H., truthteller, sage guardian of the common good.
PS Why is everyone on the main board making fun of you?
Some really good dialogue here. Nice to see others points of view. These types of discussions can be beneficial, if open minds are reading.
ReplyDeleteLGB - If you are referring to someone saying scores aren't that bad, you must be referring to me. I said, if you scroll up, they were not in the sewer. My definition was meant to say the job is getting done. Superior? No. Horrible? No. Then you want to start to compare apples to oranges. I did not bring up anything about Greenville being the best in the county, or even the worst.
Like was said above, take scores with a grain of salt. Many factor affect them. If you are middle of the road, you could fall either way, and it is an unknown. If you are superior, then great. If your are horrible, then back to the drawing board.
The whole point of the test scores comment was to say Greenville is not a horrible District for a child to go and get a quality education. Now I am not going to waste my time looking up your data, but your rankings could probably be better evaluated if your would have actually listed the percentages. Because if Greenville was ranked 6th in something they may have had 84.3%, behind 84.6% & 85.1%. So how close were they to 4th? I'm sure you can follow that analogy.
LGB-What is interesting is that it seems you want to blast anything and everything. Conclusion based on your posts. If this levy does not pass, people will open enroll elsewhere (Buildings). Then, test scores are low in the county for Greenville (Education). Why bring up test scores on a forum dealing with buildings? I only did to ask why would people leave? Because they don't have a nice pretty building? Then the hammer post, FM and Arcanum are still in old building and have the appearance of providing a better education. Brilliant analogy!!
I agree with some above comments. I am prepared to vote for all new buildings. Willing to pay more and get it all done in one big shot.
Considering the process that took place, I am not sure where we stand with State money. Once again, it has not been told to the public. Use your heads. When all the county schools were preparing for their buildings, it was planned for years. This Greenville thing, I believe has been thrown out there in less than a year. I think the money that all the county schools got is comng down the road for Greenville, hopefully in a better economy. This is not the only offer. This slam dunk process is some other offer from the State, not the big offer. If this is the so called final offer from the State, why are we not talking about the other buldings? I do not think the State lets you dip in the kitty whenever you want. Someone please enlighten us, because I am ignorant to this part of it.
I'll end for now.
JD: Our District had its chance at the Ohio's Facility Planning Commission money (what you refer as the State money) 7-8 years ago. The District spent nearly a year getting input from the public on how to take advantage of the state dollars then. Every other school district in the county took that money and ran with it and they are now building schools with it (except for FM and Arcanum which have already completed construction--that one was for you John H.)
ReplyDeleteAs usual, unlike ALL of the other districts in the County, the people of Greenville School District shot down the levy to get that free money and the comprehensive plan proposed by THAT school board which involved replacement of all school buildings in the District.
Now, because of the partial collapse of the Jr. High, we are getting another bite at the apple. Instead of being required to replace all the buildings (as before), we're permitted to address only the buildings in most dire need of replacing. This is a good thing for us because 1) it is the more fiscally conservative approach--the deal most districts got was to replace all buildings at once or get nothing (a huge price tag) and 2) because the State has actually increased the percentage it will subsidize (the $8.8M) because of the condition of our buildings--I see that last part as the State essentially saying to us "because its clear the people of Greenville School District don't care about sending their kids to buildings that may collapse on them, we'll throw some more money at you and see if your kids' lives will be worth it to you then"
Regardless, this State money is a windfall to our district AND it's a measured response because it narrowly addresses only those buildings which are most in need. It is, as I have said repeatedly above, a no brainer.
Amazingly, John H, Gigi and 57% of the voters in this District have looked at this gift horse and smacked it in the face. All the while good people that I know (the kind that contibute to the community and hire people) are leaving the district out of disgust. All of that is set against a backdrop of a town that is desperately in need of something positive to happen in order to keep families and businesses from thinking that we are a dying, selfish, backward town that will not invest in its future.
What angers me most is my belief that, if a "no" voter changes his vote to "yes", they still aren't doing their fair share. They're simply getting out of the way of those of us who do more than our fair share to save this town from itself. I'm reminded of the scene in the movie Jerry McGuire when sports agent Tom Cruise implores his idiot football playing client to get out of his own way--"Help me, help you. Help ME, help YOU!" That's all I'm asking.
5-15-10 11:13 AM
ReplyDeleteWell that was good info. Where did you get it from, because I have not seen this anywhere, and I don't live under a rock.
Provide me with references, so I can see it for myself.
Also, I don't remember this push 8 years ago for a school. How many times did the district try to get it passed?
Thanks for the info.
I just did some checking at the Board Of Elections Website.
ReplyDeleteThe election you speak of 8 years ago was for a K-5 building. It was not for all the buildings.
Correct me if I am wrong, but when the State comes in and says your number is up, you MUST replace or renovate all schools at that time, or choose which ones to deal with at that time. But it a one time deal. Why would we we have not replaced K-8 since the High School seems to be the only school that would be kept? That does not make sense.
I still say that ultimately, our number to make the big replacement has not, and is not up. Trust me, I have asked this question to different indivduals within the school sytstem, and I don't get the same answer.
So with the planning of Greenville vs. other Districts in the county, and the range of answers I have heard to the question "Is this our time, our number?", I am skeptical.
Finally I am not saying I am against building, I say do it all now. Because if Greenville is lucky enough to pass a levy now, how easy will it be in the future?
While there is a small percent of the voters that truly can't afford it there is a much larger percentage that can but claim otherwise.
ReplyDeleteThese are the ones that can afford cable TV, alcohol, cigs, cell phones, eating out,tattoo's etc. but they can't pony up a hundred bucks a year?
That is pretty sad, but reflects society at large as "me first", or "I got mine".
Well congrats, you got yours, enjoy it.
November 2003 building request:
ReplyDeleteISSUE NO. 14- GREENVILLE CSD- BOND ISSUE- CONSTRUCTION
OF PRE-K THRU GRADE 5- 3.95 MILLS- 28 YRS.- $27,500,000
I voted for this.
One other building to be built as some point in the future and high school to be renovated either as a middle school or high school.
Funding from Ohio Facilities requires you do a minimum of 40% of district requirements. Those funds available in 2003 and available in 2010.
A comprehensive plan needs to happen now to assure we use these funds wisely to meet future needs and meet ALL student needs.
JD: I'm not sure what you are asking for in terms of numbers/percentages.
ReplyDeleteI have all of them and chose not to post them for fear of confusing the issue at hand..how we "compare" to the county schools in terms of our state scores.
That being said, I'm not sure what you need to make your point? Is it how FAR below we are when we are "last"? Or is it how we measure up against the entire state?
I'm glad to provide the numbers, (or you can find them yourself at the ODE website) but I must tell you, I fail to understand the purpose of quantifying LAST or ALMOST LAST. When we are talking of losing students, teachers, families and industry to communites just 20 mins or less away, last is LAST. A reasonable person would choose 1st, 2nd or 3rd, well before LAST. However, if this is what you want, this I will give you.
Further, if it is how we measure up to the state average, I'm glad to provide those numbers, too. However, if your argument is that comparing schools WITHIN OUR OWN COUNTY is unfair, (apples to oranges), then well, I'm not sure how comparing our schools to the richest suburban neighborhoods and poorest urban ghettos is even REMOTELY fair. I mean, being better than the worst hood in the state is no more a bragging point than those in the wealthiest school districts with unlimited resources bragging over being better than us.
Bottom line, comparing within our county IS fair. WE are are all rural. We are all within a short distance of one another (unlike some counties where the districts are HOURS apart). We all shop in the same places and many of our community members work in the other communities and vice versa. Many of us have family in other districts as they do in ours. Our community resources, parks, activities, programs etc. are all similar. You're not gonna get a lot more apples to apples than this.
LGB,
ReplyDeleteI respect your last post. Make some good points.
I guess my whole feeling on it is maybe Greenville does not stack up as the highest with these scores, but the doom and gloom picture painted by some is not reality either. I would hope Greenville realizes their shortcoming with the scores and has implemented some plan to try and improve them.
I would hope that they are striving to improve those scores.
The point about posting %, instead of ranks looks like this.
5th Grade Reading
Versailles 90.6%
Arcanum 89.9%
Franklin Monroe 85.9%
Ansonia 83.6%
Tri-Village 74.1%
Greenville 72.8%
Mississinawa 72.5%
Many conclusions to be drawn from statistics. 75% is what the State requires to get the accreditation. How many more students would have needed to pass this test for those 3 Districts to get 75%? 2, 5, 12? Is Ansonia a poor educating District because they are 7 % points behind Versailles in 5th grade reading?
I agree, last is last. But I would think each District in the county faces it's own unique challenges.
JD, when we are below state minimum EVER it is bad news, especially when the argument is "Comparing WITHIN THE COUNTY is unfair, it is apples to oranges".
ReplyDeleteWell, when we fall below the state average, an average that takes into account the urban innercity worst-of-the-worst demographics (which I would argue is REALLY comparing apples to oranges), thus driving the state average low...that makes our lack of meeting the state average even WORSE.
I am really not trying to be cantankerous with you..truly I am not, but I really don't understand the point you are making. Are you drawing a parallel between the number of students enrolled and low test scores? (I am truly trying to understand, again, I am NOT being combative, I am here to open MY mind, too).
Plus, I would offer that if the adversion to facing this kind of data comes from a dislike of "the testa" themselves, there are numbers like this, which one can not blame ANY test solely on:
ReplyDeleteGraduation Rate:
Greenville: 82.4%
Versailles: 99.1%
Franklin M: 96.1%
Ansonia: 96.5%
Arcanum: 94.1%
Missinewa: 97.3%
Tri Village: 100%
Also, remember, I dislike the tests,too..tho not really for the reasons being discussed here, so I will not veer off topic.
However, AGAIN, when we are talking of the topic at hand, what amounts to: HOW NEW SCHOOL FACILITIES ARE BENEFICIAL TO THE COMMUNITY, here is the point I've tried to make:
When new families, new teachers and new buisnesses "scout" for areas in which to live/set up shop, our county is relatively small.
Meaning, a transferred (for the sake of business) family could live in ANY community (and utilize their schools) in the county, yet work in another..with very little drive time.
Meaning, a teacher could live in any community, but choose to work in another district, with very little drive time.
Meaning, a buisness could choose to open up a branch in any community, knowing they can draw employees from anywhere in the county with little drive time.
All of this being said, to be COMPETITIVE in any of these areas (for new families, "good" teachers and new industry..PLUS maintaining the ones we have), we must recognize our "competition" WITHIN THE COUNTY.
Right now, our test scores (which ALL OF THE ABOVE LOOK AT, CONSIDER AND "FACTOR IN"-make no mistake) are aweful.
Now, THAT being said, here is what NEW FACILITIES "show" these people who would consider us (forget for now all of the research that indicates adequate facilities in and of themselves DO translate to increased student performance..just for the sake of argument)
Our attention to his matter "says" this:
1) We have come together as a community, even after a long time of not seeing eye to eye, and have recognized we must work together to improve our schools and district. Therefore, we are NOT what our test numbers show, we have taken the first step towards trying to change.
2) Since we now have put our money where are mouths are, we as a community will take a more active role in our child's education at home. "I'm paying for my kid's 'fancy new school', I'm gonna make sure he does his part." Therefore, we are NOT what our test numbers show, we now will be more involved AT HOME, which will make a positive difference in the scores.
3) Since the above 2 are true, the community has come together and the parents themselves have pledged to take a more active role in their child's education (if only to make sure that since they spent the money, their kid better do their end of the deal), we as a community will now hold our teachers and our district more accountable. Therefore, we are NOT what these test scores show. Since we have begun OUR personal commitment, we will now also more closely monitor the district's.
These new facilities will "show" people considering our community ALL of the above. Therefore, when the familys, teachers and businesses look at Greenville, they will NOT be able to give as much "value" to those test scores. They will SEE with their own two eyes that we as a community have come together to work towards a change.
Right now, these prospects have only this information to go on (in terms of the schools/community comitment to education):
1) Bad scores in comparison to other "options" nearby.
2) 15 years of "no votes" on school issues.
3) Dilapidated, antiquated, potentially unsafe school buildings.
THIS is our choice. What message do we want to send?
If you do nothing but bicker and state inaccuracies as facts, then time will continue to pass. The state can close the schools in question and the students can be sent to the now not so new county schools. You either plan for the future or the future bites you in the tuckis.
ReplyDeleteNo i do not believe they shoud out it back on.
ReplyDelete