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The committee gave a no recommendation on pursuing EMS and will give that no recommendation to city council at the next meeting. The no recommendation was given because of too many assumptions in the feasibility study and the city has no money to start up EMS. Todd Oliver stated that he has talked to a lot of citizens in Greenville and they are against the city taking EMS.
Note to the most recent commenter, 9/4 at 4:20 p.m.: Your comment has been rejected so that your statements can be verified. We will follow up on this. Thanks for the information.
A very wise decision.
ReplyDeleteAgreed ... although, I'm not sure an "ad hoc" committee was really needed to come to that conclusion.
ReplyDeletefyi ... :)
ReplyDeletead hoc, adj., Formed for or concerned with one specific purpose: an ad hoc compensation committee.
I hope the "no" was less about the lack of capital and more about the voices of the citizens being heard.
ReplyDeleteThe tax payers of Greenville Township may want to ask our Trustees about a reduction in our current tax rate to support EMS and fire. IF some of the data I saw during this review was accurate, maybe we should be seeing savings.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like a fair plan to me.
ReplyDeleteThe tax rates and monies for EMS and fire are separate, they can't reduce the fire amount, it's barely enough now, as for EMS? they are already facing reduced payments for some runs, and with "Healthcare reform" being discussed there may well be reduced payments for all other runs as well.
ReplyDeleteRight now would not be a good time to reduce the monies coming in, they might have to rely on that to operate and end up short.
And then the city should look at the city fires budget and look at almost 30 people with a $2 million budget for less than 800 runs a year. Time to downsize maybe?
ReplyDeleteThe whole premise seemed to be a ploy to try and justify the cities fire budget at the taxpayers expense.
ReplyDeleteNow the city council seems to be questioning why so much money for fire when now they will be around 300 calls a year or so.
Two million for 300 calls, the Township will roughly do 140 calls for $170,000 a year or so.
The city needs to now do a study to find ways to seriously reduce those outrageous costs.
fyi ... I have no idea on the accuracy of all these figures posted by anonymous commenters.
ReplyDeleteThe figures are public record, the city FD was pretty busy in the past few years, most of the calls were for ice storms and hurricane Ike damage, without either one they should end up around 300 runs give or take.
ReplyDeleteThe 140 for the township is the average over the last several years.
To Anonymous 5:23 PM
ReplyDeleteYou have formed a logical conclusion, except for the longstanding tradition that the FD runs the City!!!
I think the cities run volume would be more like 600-700 calls a year if you take out any more major wind and ice storms in one year.
ReplyDeleteThey could reduce the amount of fire funding if they went with volunteers. They say they are volunteers but they do get paid, so if they get paid, they are not volunteers.
ReplyDeleteTo 9-1-2009 9:24 PM
ReplyDeleteWhat?? Who can reduce funding by going with volunteers? The Township Fire Department? Getting a small amount of money per call pales in comparison to the 1.2 million that the city paid their fire fighters last year. Maybe the city should consider taking on a whole lot of volunteers!
The fire department doesn't run the city, the firefighters that belong to the union are the ones that run the city, not all of the firefighters are union members. For some reason the city fears the union. It would have been smart for the city to start the EMS, it's a money making venture, unlike the fire service, why do you think the Greenville Township rescue has a surplus. It would make more sense to start EMS then then Township taking over fire service.
ReplyDeleteKudos to the city for getting input prior to launching. A shame that a process similar to this not invoked when discussion of township / city splitting the fire department. Now questions are: 1) Is the city paying ITS fair share for EMS? 2) Can we unwind the township FD to improve fire protection for those living outside the city limits?
ReplyDeleteThe last posting stated it would be smart for the city to start ems. Have you not been paying attention to this issuse the last several months. Where is the start up money going to come from? Do you think the people are going to vote another ems levy on top of a existing one? If the city had ems, there would be no surplus. Also there was an earlier posting about the city FD run volume. It stated that without ice stroms and wind stroms, the city FD run volume would be 600-700. You must not look up facts before you speak or print. There run volume is 700-800 with the ice and wind stroms. You can take away around 300 runs for the stroms. Time for the city to look into reducing the city fire budget. Big question, Do we need a full time fire department? Look at the money the city would have if we down size to a part time/ volunteer city fire department.
ReplyDeleteTo the 10:16 PM comment.
ReplyDeleteMaybe Greenville Rescue has a surplus because they use their money more wisely instead of doing things like calling in 4 men for 3 hours overtime each for say, a car fire. What would the overtime be like if they had 3 or 4 EMS calls at once. Yes, it would have been much wiser for the city to take over EMS! What a joke.
In reference to the article in the Wednesday paper of the Advocate titled No EMS Start up for Greenville. If the city wants to save money, or reduce spending costs here are a few of my ideas.
ReplyDeleteSafety Service Director John Schmidt stated that there is "probably" alot of wasted tax dollars being spent with the 14 seperate departments in the county. What is a Safety Service director anyway is his job that important, that to me is a waste of money, I dont need someone to drive around and tell me that the tree i had cut down needs to be taken down all the way to the ground. Why dont the city start there... Also, i feel that Nancy Myers being on the "ad hoc" committe is a conflict of interest ... Yes Nancy in response to the article in the paper, it isnt about "emotions" or "the city versus the township" its about saving money and cutting it from where it needs it the most, and that place is The City Fire Department. So as an outsider looking in, the city of Greenville has issues, and they need to start cutting the slack from within. And maybe, just maybe, you will have a surplus that can comopare to the Townships if you would stop spending the money that you dont have foolishly.
Sept 2nd 7am commenter - Can you site a specific example of when the GFD called in 4 people for OT on a car fire?! You people think it's fun to run your mouths when you know nothing about what's going on. Why do people think it's okay to try and push people out of a job? This isn't some game between the City and the Township! This should be about what's best for everyone. I live in the county and am terrified of what would happen if my house catches on fire. At least I know that GFD would get there within a reasonable amount of time. When my dad's chimmney was on fire it took Greenville Township over 15 minutes to get there. He had the fire out himself by then! And he only lives about 1 min outside of the city. GFD would have been there within minutes to help.
ReplyDeleteTo Sept. 2, 2009 8:04 pm
ReplyDeleteGFD obviously has no problems trying to "push" EMS workers out of their jobs because that is exactly what they tried to do with this feasibility study.
September 2, 8:04pm complainer- Listen to a scanner, they call in OT when they leave the station for simple runs. what do you mean you people, get it right Complainer, trying to push people out of a job is what the city tried to do to Greenville Twp. Rescue. Not the other way around. They only did it because they know they have too much staffing and were afraid of losing their jobs. Look who started the stone fight and where did that get them? Thats right, no where!
ReplyDeleteThey recall when they will be on a scene for an extended period of time. Is it any better for Greenville Rescue to take 2 and 3 vehicles on a simple call. Like I said before, Rescue service is a money making venture, thats why the rescue can do this and still have a surplus.
ReplyDeleteLet me get this right, it's not ok to take EMS jobs from the township, but it is okay to possibly take firefighters jobs from the city, A little bit of a double standard there wouldn't you say.
ReplyDeleteTo the Sept 2nd 1038 posting:
ReplyDeleteThe 2 to 3 vehicles that Greenville rescue takes on a simple call are staffed by employees that are on duty. They are not called in for O.T. Im sure your a firefighter who knows nothing about EMS so let me explain this to you. First of all Greenville Rescue can be a busy department that can get 2,3,4 calls in a row. Taking more than one vehicle gives that call more man power and enables them to get the unit back in service quicker so overtime doesnt have to be called in. Second of all each medic is manned with 2 employees. The majority of there calls need lifting assistance. The extra man power ensures the safety of the crew when it comes time to do heavy lifting. 3rd: Just because it is dispatched as a "SIMPLE CALL" doesnt mean squat. Responding to a hang nail can end up being a cardiac arrest. If you are a firefighter that posted that last comment maybe you should look into runnning at an EMS department so you can become better educated.
To all who have posted on this issue at hand:
ReplyDeleteAs a resident of Troy I personally have been keeping up on this issue. I have come to the simple conclusion that GFD personel are simply doing their best to justify their jobs as full time employees of the city, and from what i've seen and literature that i have read they should be afraid of cuts from within their department.
To the September 2, 2009 10:41 PM:
ReplyDeleteNo, it is not ok for anyone to try and "take" anyone’s job. But like a previous poster said, "look who started this fight." The EMS feasibility study conducted by, to name a few, Fire Chief Wolf, the GFD employees union president, and Nancy Meyers whose son is one of the lowest in seniority at GFD, did not try and combine forces to save money AND jobs. It only tried to do what was best for GFD, not what was best for the citizens as tax payers and possibly patients as well as the employees of both departments. Well, maybe what was best for GFD.
I do have one question for anybody who feels up to it. We balk at government spending and deficits. People are mad that the county is downsizing and going broke. People are mad that the federal deficit is skyrocketing. Public safety agencies are laying people off, look at the Miami County Sheriff’s office on the news today for example. But Greenville Rescue uses their money wisely, spends cautiously, and has a surplus and that is wrong as well.
So what do tax payers want, a surplus or a deficit with the potential for layoffs? Anybody have any thoughts? By the way, I spoke with the dog warden not too long ago and he told me that his office was the only county office "making money." Is that a problem as well? Maybe we should try and find out what atrocities he is perpetuating on the taxpayers like Greenville Rescue is being accused of.
Greenville Rescue utilizes volunteers and part timers to save tax payers money. Greenville Rescue also only calls in personnel for OT if there is actually a call. On the flip side of this: Greenville Fire does not utilize volunteers or part timers and they call in OT when there not needed??? If the city would just fix these 2 problems maybe the Firefighters would not have to worry about losing there jobs. Each Firefighter that is called in to "man the station" receives 3 hours OT. That adds up big time!!!!! I hear them call in personel all the time.
ReplyDeleteTo the City of Greenville and its firemen.
ReplyDeleteI am also commenting on September 2, 2009 11:09 posting. I have recently moved to the Darke County area to live closer to family. I am a fireman myself. I worked full time for a department in Northern New York and recently lost my job due to pay cuts. In the station that i worked in EMS and Fire were seperate. I can personally say that EMS was far busier than Fire. On our medics we ran three on a truck. I hear that Greenville only runs two Paramedics per truck, thats crazy, that extra set of hands does make a world of difference. So i can see why they have another ambulance follow them to a scene to help, if the staff is there why not use it, and if another call would come in that second ambulance can be free to take the call. I have read through state reporting that Greenville Rescue did almost 3,000 EMS calls in 2008. For those of you who dont know public safety, thats alot, in the station that i worked in we did roughly 2,800 EMS calls in 2008. In a world where people are relying on fast food means obesity is on the rise and it shows. I cant imagine how Greenville Rescue can lift some people if they are busy and only have 2 people per truck. While in New York I was a Paramedic for 10 years and a Fireman for almost 8, I can tell you that i injured my back at least 3 times per year while in EMS and only twice while i switched to fire fighting, EMS takes its toll on any Paramedic dont let them fool you. That is just my own personal experience with injuries and it seems to hold true throughout the board. Now im not saying that being a fire fighter isnt hard, it is, its not as physically and mentally damaging as EMS is. I now live in the Versailles area near family and I have been following this issue, and I would like to applaud Greenville Rescue for the outstanding job that they continue to do day in and out since this whole mess has began. For the city to take away years of EMS experience and valueble Paramedics would be damaging to the residents of Greenville, they are lucky to have a full time EMS department that is staffed with all full time Paramedics. Where i come from it was mostly Basics at the time, and people didnt recieve ALS treatment until they were at the Hospital. Now, the station that i worked in has mostly medics now.
I hope for the sake of the community that this has been resolved and is no longer an issue.
Marv
GFD does use their auxiallary and they do call in volunteers from other departments.
ReplyDeleteTo September 3, 2009 8:03 am, its not about calling in volunteers from other departments, its about saving money and utilizing a volunteer from your own department, oh wait you dont have volunteers. So you mean to tell us that everytime there is a call in for a run for a few people to man the station that an auxillary member will come in, i dont think so, quit trying to fool the people of the city.
ReplyDeleteI hear the word volunteer thrown around a lot in these discussions. Volunteers are a great asset to our communities. Not all EMS and fire departments operate as true volunteer departments. Some operate using paid on call, paid per run or part time. None of which is equivalent to the cost of full time, paid EMS or fire personnel. All citizens should take the time to learn more about their local fire and EMS service and how they operate. My hat is off to all of the personnel, regardless of their paid status.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you September 3, 2009 9:47am
ReplyDeleteThank you, Steve Wenning (Chief of Greenville Rescue) and Duane Sanning (Darke County Dog Warden) for being good stewards of tax dollars and doing great things for the departments you charge. Two stand-up guys for sure!
ReplyDeleteAll of these anonymous people who comment on GFD seem to have been able to read all of the Standard Operating Procedures of the GFD and GTEMS by listening to their scanners. The Ad Hoc committee has spoken, so be it. Both Greenville Fire and GTEMS have volunteers. In the case of GFD they are called Paid Call Personnel and receive the same pay as a rookie firefighter. They are called in on any general alarm fire and also attend training sessions on Saturdays once a month. They have been around since the 1940's when, during WWII there was a need for people to augment the firefighting forces. Over the years there have been former volunteer chiefs who moved to Greenville and still wanted to be a firefighter, bankers, retail people and just plain old citizens. Some have gone on to be career firefighter and some have become excellent fire instructors. The number of paid call people has been up and down over the years but, by city ordinance, is set at 20 I think or at least used to be. Utilizing these paid call people has been a good thing over the years and they go through and interview process, same agility test as the career people and 36 hour volunteer training. They are called in after the career people because it is the career people's job. As for the EMS in the fire station, the Greenville Township Trustees letter to the editor in the Greenville Advocate pretty much summed it up. Translated, it said, the townwhip has a tax levy that you in the City of Greenville have to pay and you can't do anything about it. Ha! Ha! The volunteer departments in the county are called for mutual aid when it is deemed necessary that another engine company is needed. Instead of just listening to your scanner, get up and see what they do. It has little to do with the fact that they are volunteer, it has to do with a job that needs to be done, and it works both ways. This stuff doesn't just happen, there are procedures that make things happen. So Mr. Anonymous with your scanner strapped to your ear, we know who you are, you're the same guy who complains about what firefighters do when they aren't fighting fires, but you never went in the engine house to actually see. I think this time I'll be anonymous too. That way all of my anonymous cousins won't attack me this time because we're family.
ReplyDeleteWe know what you do in the fire house when not fighting fires, watch tv, play X Box, work on your cars, clean deer, etc... How many true fires do you actually do in a year, probably can count on one hand! Part time and volunteer would fill the need of the city just fine, plenty of other departments get by just fine doing it.
ReplyDeleteI want to thank Greenville Rescue for being professional during this entire process. I have seen political battles in the past and its unbelievable how people can behave.
ReplyDeleteWould a consolidation be beneficial. I havent heard that word at all. After seeing how the city FD wants to take EMS why would any of the Township Paramedics want to work with them. There is no brotherly love on how this went down. I think with the Township already having all the resources and doing the majority of the run volume maybe they should pursue taking the city fire over. How arrogant and selfish. Im very disappointed with the FD. You guys do a wonderful job and I thank you for that but shame on you.
ReplyDelete"The number of paid call people has been up and down over the years but, by city ordinance, is set at 20 I think or at least used to be."
ReplyDeleteCurrent number of volunteers on staff at GFD: 3
To September 4, 2009 10:33 AM. You are obviously a greenville city firefighter. I know for a fact that you don't want prople to know what goes on behind your big garage doors. I think you guys are scared now. Scared prople are going to notice that the city doesn't need a full time fire department. Quit trying to make the township trustees look like bad guys. No they are not giving up the tax levy. They are not laughing at people. Its the best for all persons in the city and township. There is no way the city could provide ems to the standard of GTR. All full timers are Paramedics, not all basics and one paramedic as the GFD. GFD has no real ems experience. Look at the cities fire departments budget. I would bet its the biggest budget in the city of greenville. So Mr. firefighter and your Cheif. If you really want to save taxpayers money. Your department should be a all part-time & volunteer department.
ReplyDeleteI think that as long as Chief Wolf is in charge, Nancy Meyer's son has the potential to be laid off, and Schmidt has his hands in anything having to do with city government, this issue will never die. They don't care what city council or the tax payers have to think. Just my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI've always been told in business you cover up the names and look at the numbers. When you look at the numbers it makes difficult decisions less emotional and personal. Numbers don't lie. If the numbers don't require a full-time dept. anymore... change it. Pretty simple. I see too many people running our city with their hands in too many pots for 'personal' reasons. When money is tight we all have to tighten our budgets, why should government be any different. Unfortunately... I agree with 09-06 5:40 PM
ReplyDeleteI agree with the last post. The people need to pressure the city council and mayor to reduce our city fire department. We should let the mayor and council know they can br replaced with people who will use our tax money wisely.
ReplyDeleteHmmmm, seems like people are becoming educated on the fact that the City Fire Department has
ReplyDelete"the city" wrapped around their fingers. Its good to see that some are becoming aware of the true colors that the City FD is showing. Ive lived in this city for 42 years, and ive never been disgusted with the city FD until about a few months ago, its only apparent that they are trying so hard to justify there presence.
All other cities are cutting fire fighting jobs. Why doesn't greenville? I've also lived here all my life, except when in the service. I've never really been aware of what the fire department does, that is when they aren't putting out fires. Which can not be to many times a year. What do they do behind them big old garage doors? Sounds like to me, they are wasting our tax money. Mayor Bower's and city council, show us proof why we need a full time fire department.
ReplyDeleteWhy wouldn't a part time/ volunteer department work? How money would that save the city? Is not the fire departments budget the biggest for the city? If so, shame on all you council members and you Mayor!!!! Sounds like a lot of them need replaced next election.
In all reality the City FD is just not running the city government they are running everyone who has posted something on this site. The citizens of Greenville need to quit typing and start talking, TO THE MAYOR. I guarantee if people start showing up to his office something will be done.
ReplyDelete" The citizens of Greenville need to quit typing and start talking, TO THE MAYOR. I guarantee if people start showing up to his office something will be done."
ReplyDeleteThat would be a switch, they seem to do what they want,regardless of what the citizens want.
The arrogance and greed of Greenville's fire chief has opened the door to the Greenville Fire Department; and he shouldn't be surprised that people are walking through it.
ReplyDeleteI do not live in the city and it takes at least 15 minutes for a fire truck to get to my house. Maybe the department needs paired down (maybe not), but you all would like them to show up ASAP if your house was burning down.
ReplyDeleteTo September 10, 2009 4:17 PM. How do you know it takes 15 minutes for a fire truck to get to your house? Has one been out there before? Was it the cities or townships? Maybe you should move closer to town if you want them there ASAP.
ReplyDeleteGiven the choice, I think everyone would like to have a staffed fire station ready to come if they ever had a fire or any other emergency. I doubt you could really argue that they wouldn’t get there quicker. And I’m sure there is room to cut costs in the cities fire department. I’d like to know the real motives for some who are bashing the cities fire department. The comments on this post seem to have lost any real purpose except as a forum for trading barbs. My two cents.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that most people would like a full time department. However, since 72% of the country is volunteer (including some east coast cities like Chevy Chase, Maryland) volunteer depts. are an acceptable alternative. The simple fact is that actual fire runs have dramatically dropped in the last ten years due to greater efforts in fire prevention (this is where inspections come in) more fire retardant materials, and stricter codes. I read in the Dayton paper not too many months ago that of all the firefighter deaths last year, most were due to firefighters being killed in auto accidents. While the reduction of fires is to be applauded, it has also hurt the need for full time depts. Having been involved in this situation,I will tell you that I do have a couple of people on the City fire dept. that I really like. They are good people, who take pride in their work, and do the very best they can to protect the city. That being said, I would like to offer a solution to the problem. This is not to denigrate anyone or department, but a solution that might make sense for the city. Here we go, have the city go to a part time dept. From the hours of 7 a.m. to 5 p.m. have 5 full time firefighters on staff. After 5 p.m. go volunteer. The reason for this is simple. We were told when we started the Township Dept. that these would be the hardest hours to fill because that is normally when people are working. After 5, normally, most volunteers are home. We were fortunate in that we had plenty of guys in Greenville who were available at that critical time. On the weekends, go full time volunteer. We have found that so far, staffing has not been a problem. This is just one solution to the problem of budgets and protection needs for the city. I hope no one thinks this is meant as a slight to anyone. It is just a thought and hopefully will lead others to think about solving a tough problem.
ReplyDeleteI think the reason for "bashing the cities fire department" might come from all the years the EMS has been attacked by them. It has been OK, for all these years, that the FD has given the EMS a hard time, but now that they are being scrutinized ... It is wrong? I don't think that anyone should bash anyone BUT I think that people should stand up for themselves. It is time that FD leaves the EMS alone because they do a good job! Everone needs to worry about themselves and that they are doing right!!
ReplyDeleteGood idea Stegall, but hopefully you can get properly trained staff and real professionals to run the city fire department, unlike the unprofessionalism that manages to keep showing up on scenes in the township. Your chief has no experience and apparently doesn't require that he has to train his personnel either. At least the GFD are trained to do their job well! I've been a resident of the township for 45yrs and listen to a lot that goes on in scanner land, and have had to be treated by Greenville Rescue, and I'll tell you that the Rescue is the only good thing that has come from this township. They do great work and are truly staffed by professionals. I would hate to see them lose jobs to the city.
ReplyDeleteI don't favor a all volunteer dept. in the city, it takes too much extra time to get to the station.
ReplyDeleteThere are too many old downtown buildings and nursing homes to rely on an all volunteer staff IMHO.
Those extra minutes could mean the difference between a one or two room fire and losing a whole downtown block.
I could see a combination of full and part time though, it's hard to justify 25 full time people for 200-300 runs a year.