Last May 31, Scott Roeder got up from a pew at Wichita's Reformation Lutheran Church at the start of services and walked to the foyer. Without saying word, he pressed the barrel of a .22-caliber handgun to Dr. George Tiller's forehead and pulled the trigger. Tiller died instantly. Roeder has already admitted to the crime, justified in his mind by the fact that Tiller was a notorious late-term abortion provider.
Roeder is now on trial, and until recently was expected to be convicted of first degree murder. However, Roeder's attorneys have requested instructions on the lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter, which in Missouri is defined as: "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force." Roeder's argument - at its core - is that the murder of Tiller was justified in order to save countless unborn children, which it almost certainly has. The judge has allowed Roeder to advance this argument at trial, drawing gasps from both sides of the abortion debate. If convicted of voluntary manslaughter, Roeder could serve as little as five years - leading pro-choice advocates to argue that the decision puts abortion doctors in danger of becoming defenseless innocent victims murdered for no good reason (which is quite ironic if you think about it).
Any thoughts on this?
Your comment about irony is absolutely perfect. I wonder how many times you will have to explain this to the dumbocrats
ReplyDeleteYes it is ironic, however two wrongs don't make a right. I am no expert in the bible, but i do know that God is not in favor of murdering these doctors that perform abortions. Scott Roeder broke one of the ten commandments in murdering this doctor. I do not support abortion, I think its wrong in so many ways. That is my belief and opinion, however i would never think about murdering a doctor who performs abortions. If Scott Roeder was really in God's will, he would of been praying for this doctor and wouldn't killed him. God will judge in the end
ReplyDeleteScott Roeder should get to taste some hot lead for himself, or the end of a rope.
ReplyDeleteI knew there would be some strong feelings on this. For me, it's the legal angle that's interesting. What this guy did fits the definition of voluntary manslaughter. I think the judge is probably just following the law - like most judges, he doesn't want to get reversed.
ReplyDeleteWhat he did was murder, plain and simple.
ReplyDeleteMotive notwithstanding he should get the death penalty ASAP.
There is no reason anybody should take a life unless your life is threatened.If the doctor he shot practiced this he might still be alive.
ReplyDeleteJohn H got it right.
ReplyDeleteBut, "it's the legal angle that's interesting" just puts most people off as to the way our judicial system works.....or doesn't work.
Well, I am a lawyer. It's interesting in the sense that when the law was written, there was probably no way the legislators could have ever envisioned this scenario. Yet the law they wrote fits these circumstances.
ReplyDeleteNo - it's not right for anybody to be murdered. But I also do not have a lot of sympathy for these late-term abortion doctors feeling a little insecure about their safety. Those guys are perverting the existing law in order to kill babies deemed viable even under Roe vs. Wade.
From the legal geek perspective, it's interesting.
"an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force."
ReplyDeleteIf that is interpretted literally, couldn't any murderer use that as a defense to get a lesser charge? I murdered my husband because i had an unreasonable but honest belief he was going to kill me (even though there is no evidence to suggest any danger to the killer), etc, etc.
To suggest he should be treated any differently due to the occupation of his victim is outrageous. From a legal perspective, this defense shouldn't fly at all (this is me armchair lawyering, i guess). The doctor was not causing harm to anyone (in the eyes of the law).
dukeblackohio- so basically you're suggesting that it's the doctor's fault he was shot point blank in a church because he performed a medical procedure completely legal?
You can debate rowe vs wade all you want, I have a hard time debating this specific case.
No Im not saying it was the doctors fault Kurt Im saying he knew what he was facing when he decided to go into this feild.This is not nothing new,People have been bombing abortion clinics since abortion began and they all ways will as long as it is legal.I am sure this is not the first doctor killed from abortion.This one made national news because of where it happened.In a church.I am from georgia and I no of at least to doctors that were killed over the same thing.One was shot in his office the other was shot at a fast food drive threw.
ReplyDeleteKilling, and justifying the act by religious beliefs, is certainly not new. Those who would free this man should also want those who destroyed the twin towers to go free. After all, it was for the same reason, just a different religion.
ReplyDeleteMr. Roeder and Dr. Tiller are both heretics. "Thou shalt not kill" is pretty straight forward. This is a classic "two wrongs don't make a right" sceanario.
ReplyDeleteLegally, I believe this fits the definition of voluntary manslaughter.
I think the word ironic completely fits! the man that was killed had a chance at life-lived his life-then grew up became a doctor just to take innocent lives from babies that have no voice. no one likes decisions made for them so who do those that think abortion is perfectly fine think they are? God creates every child for a purpose and the purpose is to breath life not death.
ReplyDeleteI don't like this legal "logic" because it could be applied to the man yet to be tried in New York for the Twin Towers destruction. He also acted with religious reasons, just a different religion then Roeder.
ReplyDeleteWhen in the debate of abortion with most, it all seems like they are in favor of the death penalty.
ReplyDeleteWhy do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
ReplyDeleteAnon @10:33 makes a really good point, well said.
ReplyDeleteThere are nutcases in every religion. To murder someone cause you think what they are or what they do is evil, is just crazy. Like the other nutcases in different religions, this guy make all christians look bad. Just like the nuts that flew into the twin towers made islam look bad. Someone said Roeder should be charged with voluntary manslaughter, i disagree he sould be charged with first degree murder. I would bet he has been thinking and planning to kill this doctor for awhile. DJ i agree with you, it's hard to feel sorry for these abortion doctors, but the bible does say to turn the other cheek. Even if you are convinced what this doctor was doing is wrong or evil. It it not in God's will to murder him. Maybe he should of read where the bible said to love thy neighbor, or do good to those who do evil.
ReplyDelete"an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force."
ReplyDeleteThis is the crux of the legal question that DJ is highlighting.
It is craziness to think that this applies when the physician had permission of the woman to perform the abortion.
It is certainly an increasingly slippery slope that our legal system operates on which gives opportunities for criminals avoid being held accountable.
Maybe more would be happy if Roeder had said, "The Devil made me do it!" But it still does not justify or minimalize the act of murder.
ReplyDelete"then grew up became a doctor just to take innocent lives"
ReplyDeleteHow do you know what his rational was for entering that field? did he tell you that? or is it a far fetched statement not based on fact?
I believe the biggest irony of this whole mess is the fact the abortion doctor was at church?????
ReplyDeleteWhat is "ironic" about that 9:00 Anon? maybe God doesn't like abortion docs?
ReplyDeleteOr is it something else?
yeah, there was a comment above that it wasn't God's will for roeder to murder tiller. but none of us can know that. maybe it was God's will.
ReplyDeleteDJ,
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure we can say that it was not God's will for Roeder to murder Tiller. I don't know if you have read the bible or not. There is alot of verses in the bible and at the end it says this is Gods will. None of them say murder someone because they are doing something you do not believe in. I also pointed out where it says to love thy neighbor. What part of murdering tiller is love. Don't get me wrong, i am very much against abortion. By your comment DJ, you have justified the actions of the nuts who flew into the towers in New York city. I'm pretty sure they were convinced they were doing Allah (their Gods) will.
DJ, was that really you that made the comment at 9:36? I want to know if it was perhaps someone who hijacked your name.
ReplyDeleteno it was me. feel free to tell me why i'm wrong ... seriouly, i'd like to know.
ReplyDeletegood people die prematurely all the time, some by violent means, and a lot of us are comforted by the idea that it's all part of God's plan. i'm not saying that the murder was part of God's plan, just pointing out that I'm perfectly OK not understanding why any of it happened b/c I trust that God has it all taken care of.
maybe it was god's will for this to happen to stop future attacks on abortion doctors by putting this murderer to death.
ReplyDeletein terms of making a judgment, people speculating on what "god" wills is just going to lead to a giant cluster____.
if you allow someone's religious beliefs to dictate how we punish them (or not punish them), it's a slippery, slippery slope I don't think anyone could really stand on.
Also, I can tell you you're wrong as much as your can say the below statement is not true:
ReplyDelete"It was not in god's will for Roeder to Murder this man."
there, we can all float out inarguable/unprovable ideas.
By your comment DJ, you have justified the actions of the nuts who flew into the towers in New York city. I'm pretty sure they were convinced they were doing Allah (their Gods) will.
ReplyDeleteStill waiting for you to comment on this DJ.
I have not justified anything. And I'm not condoning the ations of Roeder, and certainly not the 9/11 terrorists - and it's pretty awful of you to suggest that. You are: apples and oranges.
ReplyDeleteI am saying that no human can say categorically that he/she knows what God's will is. Did people die in the flood? Was that God's will?
I'm not trying to start a theological argument (esp. since I'll lose). All I'm saying is that God's in conrol, I'm ok with that, and I'm not going to presume to know all the details of his plan.
OK, here goes.
ReplyDeleteNo part of evil is God's will, but that's not to say God doesn't allow evil to take place. God has given us the freedom to choose good or evil. The story of our beginnings illustrates this very well. We are free to choose evil, or to choose the way of God. So, abortion is certainly not consistent with God's will, but neither is the killing of abortion doctors.
The pat answer, one that we hear often, is that God is in control, that there is a reason for every thing that happens, and that it's all a part of "God's plan" I don't believe any of that. Accidents happen, people make the wrong choices, and there are certain physical laws in place in God's creation that determine weather and other natural conditions.
Is God in control? Yes, I believe that. However, we're not robots. There is good and there is evil. We have the free will to choose good, to choose God.
Where is God when bad things happen? As Jesus cried, so God mourns with those who mourn. And God is in the rescuer. God is present with God's people.
I don't claim to have all the answers. This is an attempt at a thoughtful response to a difficult situation. I know you don't want to get in a religious debate, but you brought it up. I'm also leaving myself wide open for others to criticise my beliefs. So be it. Volumes of books have been written on these exceedingly difficult issues, so I don't pretend to think I have covered all there is to cover. This is just a small attempt at a huge question.
These arguments have simply reinforced the truth that abortion is best left to each person's religious beliefs and has no place in politics or government.
ReplyDelete